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The Nordic countries must adapt away from this pre-globalization mentality or have all of their assets slowly withered away by more flexible economies. The same

The Nordic countries must adapt away from this pre-globalization mentality or have all of their assets slowly withered away by more flexible economies. The same exact problem applies to Finland where I'm from. Euro-area economies are stagnant or shrinking whilst US economy is churning onwards like a madman. They will buy all of our assets away over time unless we start seriously competing. Sad, but this is the only choice now that we've chosen to participate in the global economy.

vGPU 3y ago
Or they could refuse to accept it, raise import taxes to 500%, and thrive just fine.
bigfudge 3y ago
Or we could choose to prioritise humans over the meaningless growth figures the US values. When the median income has barely changed or even shrunk overall growth number is irrelevant. In fact it's worse than irrelevant — it means your society is more uneven, which has many second order costs. What we actually need to do is develop a political and economic language which values things people actually care about.
- bjornsing 3y ago
  One thing I care about as a Swedish engineer is interesting work on the forefront of technology. Sadly that’s also been sacrificed in the Nordic model. I very much agree with the Finish parent that we need to adapt our societies. It’s not just about economic standard of living, it’s about staying relevant. In fact I would even go further: it’s an ethical question to me. I see the holding back of ambitious, entrepreneurial people in order to preserve “social stability” as increasingly unethical.
  - sgu999 3y ago
    > One thing I care about as a Swedish engineer is interesting work on the forefront of technology. Do you have concrete examples? I can imagine that if you're working on avionics Sweden might not be the best place, but otherwise it really doesn't seem to be lacking opportunities for a small country.
    - bjornsing 3y ago
      Sweden is fairly decent for avionics actually. For example we’ve designed and built our own fighter yet (the Gripen), which I’d say is impressive for a small country of 10 million inhabitants. I’m interested in fundamental challenges around computing: programming languages, cloud platforms, operating systems, combinatorial optimization, database technology, machine learning and the like. Not many bleeding edge opportunities around that here. We also have a work culture were effort and ability is not rewarded (which at least I associate with strong unions), but “playing politics” is. It’s very hard to stay motivated in a culture like that. I think this is an important part of the downward spiral.
      - hef19898 3y ago
        SAAB is an important aerspace company, from fighters to avionics and electronics. Pretty good place for avionics people actually.
      - anon4242 3y ago
        > We also have a work culture were effort and ability is not rewarded (which at least I associate with strong unions), but “playing politics” is. To me that sounds like your typical large company. I've had a great time working at small startups but I've found that my job satisfaction pretty much scales with the inverse of company size (within limits, it seems 20-30 employees is the sweet-spot for me).
        jamesrr39 3y ago
        Adding to this, I also found that once a startup reaches a certain point, more "experienced" management starts getting hired (often from bigger companies), and the large company politics gets brought into the startup. Reflecting on it, oftentimes when this happens it is the time for me to start thinking about looking for a new job.
        bjornsing 3y ago
        Well in the US there is at least the hypothetical of becoming the next Jeff Dean. In Sweden, not so much. I think it’s disingenuous to pretend there’s not a difference.
  - anon4242 3y ago
    > One thing I care about as a Swedish engineer is interesting work on the forefront of technology. Sadly that’s also been sacrificed in the Nordic model. I am also a Swedish engineer and find that there are plenty of interesting and innovative companies to work for. As a software engineer it has typically been easy to find jobs that offer better compensation packages than what the union requires but I still see a union agreement as a positive thing if the company has it. To me it signals that they care about their employees. I also believe that the strong unions in Sweden have given us the (at least) five weeks of vacation, compared to the two in (the weakly unionized USA) and other quality of life and safety improvements. > I see the holding back of ambitious, entrepreneurial people in order to preserve “social stability” as increasingly unethical. This is quite an ignorant view. Social stability is the foundation for society, and society is the foundation for innovation. Who will build what you innovate? Who will buy it? Who will service it? Who will innovate based on your innovation? If you did an honest comparison of the innovative output of socially stable countries with those that are not socially stable you would change your mind.
    - bjornsing 3y ago
      I think we have different opinions, but also that you are misinterpreting on purpose. The reason I put social stability in quotes is that it’s not the perfect words for what I mean, but it’s meaning should be clear from the context. What I was referring to was the Nordic cultural focus on a certain kind of “equality”, often referred to as the law of Jante, which is very focused on holding capable independent-minded people back. > Who will innovate based on your innovation? This is an excellent question, but I would like to turn it around: Who’s innovation do you innovate on top of? The answer in my case is “Anglo-Saxons”. There is pretty much nothing in my tech stack from the EU. It’s just a black hole. Does that not concern you at all?
      - anon4242 3y ago
        "From the EU" is hard to discriminate in our industry these days I think, things are developed all around the world these days. Then again maybe we have different tech stacks but mine typically includes: Linux (originally from Finland), ARM (from previously EU member UK), C++ (designed by a Dane) and Python (designed by a Dutch). That's the basis at least then there are other stuff as the need comes by. As for social stability, I didn't intentionally misinterpret you. The kind of monetary equality that we traditionally have had in Sweden is good for social stability (the one without quotes I was talking about). That has changed during the last couple of decades and with increasing differences in income comes the increasing social problems we see. OTOH I do agree that Jante can definitely be a negative factor when it comes to innovation.
  - waihtis 3y ago
    This 100%. We had "tax day" (release of tax records from last year) yesterday and the public flogging for entrepreneurs "earning too much" was rampant. This society has very heavily turned anti-achievement in the last few years.
  - clarifyingN 3y ago
    > One thing I care about as a Swedish engineer is interesting work on the forefront of technology. Sadly that’s also been sacrificed in the Nordic model. youre so high on copium if you think that the economic model has anything to do with that... if you were a world class talent, you'd be able to get a position for such a job under any economic system. youre just not.
    - waihtis 3y ago
      if your aim is to effectively troll, reading comprehension is a prerequisite
  - eddtries 3y ago
    > interesting work on the forefront of technology What sort of interesting work is not possible in Sweden? I've worked in many tech hubs and am now in Stockholm; Oxford, London, Palo Alto, etc, and haven't noticed anything
    - bjornsing 3y ago
      My impression is that the more ambitious and intellectually demanding the less of a chance you will see it succeed in Sweden, at least if its software. So sure, if you want to build a consumer app that plays music or lets you talk to friends then Sweden is great. If you want to build OpenAI, then not so much.
- waihtis 3y ago
  > choose to prioritise humans over the meaningless growth figures Again, then you either need to invent your own currency and stop participating in the global economy or accept that Nordic welfare state will cease and we'll become akin to a soviet block economy in the next 50 yr timespan
kreeben 3y ago
The only way is to give up your leverage? How strange! There needs to be a balance between what the employers want and what employees want. Or else... Unions are a way to reach balance.
- bjornsing 3y ago
  It’s a way to reach a balance between what employers want and what unions want. What employees want tends to become rather irrelevant, like it is in this Tesla situation for example.
  - scarab92 3y ago
    It typically doesn’t even balance employer and union wants. Almost always, the unions ask for too much get bloated, then the employer outsources or offshores to get back to paying market wages. It’s a pattern I’ve seen over and over again. For whatever reason, union agreements often turn out to be unstable arrangements.
jjulius 3y ago
>... whilst US economy is churning onwards like a madman. Ask the average US citizen if it feels that way.
- maitland 3y ago
  It does.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - jjulius 3y ago
    A single SWE at Amazon isn't really a good representative for the average population.
- bitshiftfaced 3y ago
  I don't know how it makes them feel, but the poorest 20% of US citizens consume more than the average citizen in many European countries, so they're at least spending in a way that should feel that way. https://www.justfacts.com/news_poorest_americans_richer_than_europe.asp https://www.justfacts.com/news_poorest_americans_richer_than...
  - hef19898 3y ago
    Oh yes, we all life to consume to fill the vast emptiness of our souls! /s Or not.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - anon4242 3y ago
    Haha, that article is ludicrous. I wonder how rich Elon Musk would be on that scale? "Wow Elon, you have managed to consume goods for $50000! You are off the chart of richness. $50k, what a rich man!"
edgyquant 3y ago
We’re currently experiencing deglobalization at a rapid rate
- rsanek 3y ago
  are we? from what I've seen this is mostly talk, the statistics suggest that while globalization isn't growing as much as it was previously, it's more like it's leveled off rather than actually decreasing.
- waihtis 3y ago
  maybe bipolarizing, but the centralization is still ongoing
sgu999 3y ago
Unless you're already a millionaire, you should be happy to live in Finland and not in a more "flexible" economy like the US. No public healthcare, guns everywhere, no workers rights... No thanks. I'll take the much lower GDP per capita of my country for a better chance of living a decent life here. As for a better hypothesis as to why the US economy is so powerful: "The Prize" or "Guns, Germs and Steel".
- bjornsing 3y ago
  In many ways it’s actually the other way around: If you already are a millionaire then the Nordic countries are wonderful places to live. But if you’re not, but young, talented and ambitious, then the US is the place to be.
  - sgu999 3y ago
    "young, talented and ambitious" seems like a rather small portion of the population of a country
    - bjornsing 3y ago
      Sure, I’ll concede this much: if you’re middle age, mediocre and lazy then the Nordic countries are a paradise on earth.
      - danaris 3y ago
        Ah, yes: because if you're not "ambitious", aka "driven to become a multi-millionaire, no matter what it costs to get there", then you must be mediocre and lazy. Nice false dichotomy there.
        bjornsing 3y ago
        I’m not saying that there are no upsides with the Nordic model. But like any system, it also has downsides. How you feel about those upsides and downsides largely comes down to personality and (largely political) values.
maxehmookau 3y ago
The term "flexible economy" makes me feel sick. Flexibility in the economy only creates flexibility for those at the _very_ top. It creates potential instability for literally everybody else.
- bjornsing 3y ago
  No, it creates social mobility for everyone. One example is that it’s now respectable to be a computer nerd in many circles the US, because some of the richest and most influential people of this generation are. In Sweden: not so much. Money and power stays were it has always been.
  - sgu999 3y ago
    You have a fair share of famous names in tech for a small country... You blew up Ericsson but I believe Spotify, Minecraft, Skype, Candy Crush, Flightradar are all from Sweden?

vGPU 3y ago

Or they could refuse to accept it, raise import taxes to 500%, and thrive just fine.

bigfudge 3y ago

Or we could choose to prioritise humans over the meaningless growth figures the US values. When the median income has barely changed or even shrunk overall growth number is irrelevant. In fact it's worse than irrelevant — it means your society is more uneven, which has many second order costs. What we actually need to do is develop a political and economic language which values things people actually care about.

bjornsing 3y ago
One thing I care about as a Swedish engineer is interesting work on the forefront of technology. Sadly that’s also been sacrificed in the Nordic model. I very much agree with the Finish parent that we need to adapt our societies. It’s not just about economic standard of living, it’s about staying relevant. In fact I would even go further: it’s an ethical question to me. I see the holding back of ambitious, entrepreneurial people in order to preserve “social stability” as increasingly unethical.
- sgu999 3y ago
  > One thing I care about as a Swedish engineer is interesting work on the forefront of technology. Do you have concrete examples? I can imagine that if you're working on avionics Sweden might not be the best place, but otherwise it really doesn't seem to be lacking opportunities for a small country.
  - bjornsing 3y ago
    Sweden is fairly decent for avionics actually. For example we’ve designed and built our own fighter yet (the Gripen), which I’d say is impressive for a small country of 10 million inhabitants. I’m interested in fundamental challenges around computing: programming languages, cloud platforms, operating systems, combinatorial optimization, database technology, machine learning and the like. Not many bleeding edge opportunities around that here. We also have a work culture were effort and ability is not rewarded (which at least I associate with strong unions), but “playing politics” is. It’s very hard to stay motivated in a culture like that. I think this is an important part of the downward spiral.
    - hef19898 3y ago
      SAAB is an important aerspace company, from fighters to avionics and electronics. Pretty good place for avionics people actually.
    - anon4242 3y ago
      > We also have a work culture were effort and ability is not rewarded (which at least I associate with strong unions), but “playing politics” is. To me that sounds like your typical large company. I've had a great time working at small startups but I've found that my job satisfaction pretty much scales with the inverse of company size (within limits, it seems 20-30 employees is the sweet-spot for me).
      - jamesrr39 3y ago
        Adding to this, I also found that once a startup reaches a certain point, more "experienced" management starts getting hired (often from bigger companies), and the large company politics gets brought into the startup. Reflecting on it, oftentimes when this happens it is the time for me to start thinking about looking for a new job.
      - bjornsing 3y ago
        Well in the US there is at least the hypothetical of becoming the next Jeff Dean. In Sweden, not so much. I think it’s disingenuous to pretend there’s not a difference.
- anon4242 3y ago
  > One thing I care about as a Swedish engineer is interesting work on the forefront of technology. Sadly that’s also been sacrificed in the Nordic model. I am also a Swedish engineer and find that there are plenty of interesting and innovative companies to work for. As a software engineer it has typically been easy to find jobs that offer better compensation packages than what the union requires but I still see a union agreement as a positive thing if the company has it. To me it signals that they care about their employees. I also believe that the strong unions in Sweden have given us the (at least) five weeks of vacation, compared to the two in (the weakly unionized USA) and other quality of life and safety improvements. > I see the holding back of ambitious, entrepreneurial people in order to preserve “social stability” as increasingly unethical. This is quite an ignorant view. Social stability is the foundation for society, and society is the foundation for innovation. Who will build what you innovate? Who will buy it? Who will service it? Who will innovate based on your innovation? If you did an honest comparison of the innovative output of socially stable countries with those that are not socially stable you would change your mind.
  - bjornsing 3y ago
    I think we have different opinions, but also that you are misinterpreting on purpose. The reason I put social stability in quotes is that it’s not the perfect words for what I mean, but it’s meaning should be clear from the context. What I was referring to was the Nordic cultural focus on a certain kind of “equality”, often referred to as the law of Jante, which is very focused on holding capable independent-minded people back. > Who will innovate based on your innovation? This is an excellent question, but I would like to turn it around: Who’s innovation do you innovate on top of? The answer in my case is “Anglo-Saxons”. There is pretty much nothing in my tech stack from the EU. It’s just a black hole. Does that not concern you at all?
    - anon4242 3y ago
      "From the EU" is hard to discriminate in our industry these days I think, things are developed all around the world these days. Then again maybe we have different tech stacks but mine typically includes: Linux (originally from Finland), ARM (from previously EU member UK), C++ (designed by a Dane) and Python (designed by a Dutch). That's the basis at least then there are other stuff as the need comes by. As for social stability, I didn't intentionally misinterpret you. The kind of monetary equality that we traditionally have had in Sweden is good for social stability (the one without quotes I was talking about). That has changed during the last couple of decades and with increasing differences in income comes the increasing social problems we see. OTOH I do agree that Jante can definitely be a negative factor when it comes to innovation.
- waihtis 3y ago
  This 100%. We had "tax day" (release of tax records from last year) yesterday and the public flogging for entrepreneurs "earning too much" was rampant. This society has very heavily turned anti-achievement in the last few years.
- clarifyingN 3y ago
  > One thing I care about as a Swedish engineer is interesting work on the forefront of technology. Sadly that’s also been sacrificed in the Nordic model. youre so high on copium if you think that the economic model has anything to do with that... if you were a world class talent, you'd be able to get a position for such a job under any economic system. youre just not.
  - waihtis 3y ago
    if your aim is to effectively troll, reading comprehension is a prerequisite
- eddtries 3y ago
  > interesting work on the forefront of technology What sort of interesting work is not possible in Sweden? I've worked in many tech hubs and am now in Stockholm; Oxford, London, Palo Alto, etc, and haven't noticed anything
  - bjornsing 3y ago
    My impression is that the more ambitious and intellectually demanding the less of a chance you will see it succeed in Sweden, at least if its software. So sure, if you want to build a consumer app that plays music or lets you talk to friends then Sweden is great. If you want to build OpenAI, then not so much.
waihtis 3y ago
> choose to prioritise humans over the meaningless growth figures Again, then you either need to invent your own currency and stop participating in the global economy or accept that Nordic welfare state will cease and we'll become akin to a soviet block economy in the next 50 yr timespan

kreeben 3y ago

The only way is to give up your leverage? How strange! There needs to be a balance between what the employers want and what employees want. Or else... Unions are a way to reach balance.

bjornsing 3y ago
It’s a way to reach a balance between what employers want and what unions want. What employees want tends to become rather irrelevant, like it is in this Tesla situation for example.
- scarab92 3y ago
  It typically doesn’t even balance employer and union wants. Almost always, the unions ask for too much get bloated, then the employer outsources or offshores to get back to paying market wages. It’s a pattern I’ve seen over and over again. For whatever reason, union agreements often turn out to be unstable arrangements.

jjulius 3y ago

>... whilst US economy is churning onwards like a madman. Ask the average US citizen if it feels that way.

maitland 3y ago
It does.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- jjulius 3y ago
  A single SWE at Amazon isn't really a good representative for the average population.
bitshiftfaced 3y ago
I don't know how it makes them feel, but the poorest 20% of US citizens consume more than the average citizen in many European countries, so they're at least spending in a way that should feel that way. https://www.justfacts.com/news_poorest_americans_richer_than_europe.asp https://www.justfacts.com/news_poorest_americans_richer_than...
- hef19898 3y ago
  Oh yes, we all life to consume to fill the vast emptiness of our souls! /s Or not.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- anon4242 3y ago
  Haha, that article is ludicrous. I wonder how rich Elon Musk would be on that scale? "Wow Elon, you have managed to consume goods for $50000! You are off the chart of richness. $50k, what a rich man!"

edgyquant 3y ago

We’re currently experiencing deglobalization at a rapid rate

rsanek 3y ago
are we? from what I've seen this is mostly talk, the statistics suggest that while globalization isn't growing as much as it was previously, it's more like it's leveled off rather than actually decreasing.
waihtis 3y ago
maybe bipolarizing, but the centralization is still ongoing

sgu999 3y ago

Unless you're already a millionaire, you should be happy to live in Finland and not in a more "flexible" economy like the US. No public healthcare, guns everywhere, no workers rights... No thanks. I'll take the much lower GDP per capita of my country for a better chance of living a decent life here. As for a better hypothesis as to why the US economy is so powerful: "The Prize" or "Guns, Germs and Steel".

bjornsing 3y ago
In many ways it’s actually the other way around: If you already are a millionaire then the Nordic countries are wonderful places to live. But if you’re not, but young, talented and ambitious, then the US is the place to be.
- sgu999 3y ago
  "young, talented and ambitious" seems like a rather small portion of the population of a country
  - bjornsing 3y ago
    Sure, I’ll concede this much: if you’re middle age, mediocre and lazy then the Nordic countries are a paradise on earth.
    - danaris 3y ago
      Ah, yes: because if you're not "ambitious", aka "driven to become a multi-millionaire, no matter what it costs to get there", then you must be mediocre and lazy. Nice false dichotomy there.
      - bjornsing 3y ago
        I’m not saying that there are no upsides with the Nordic model. But like any system, it also has downsides. How you feel about those upsides and downsides largely comes down to personality and (largely political) values.

maxehmookau 3y ago

The term "flexible economy" makes me feel sick. Flexibility in the economy only creates flexibility for those at the _very_ top. It creates potential instability for literally everybody else.

bjornsing 3y ago
No, it creates social mobility for everyone. One example is that it’s now respectable to be a computer nerd in many circles the US, because some of the richest and most influential people of this generation are. In Sweden: not so much. Money and power stays were it has always been.
- sgu999 3y ago
  You have a fair share of famous names in tech for a small country... You blew up Ericsson but I believe Spotify, Minecraft, Skype, Candy Crush, Flightradar are all from Sweden?