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Part of the reason I’m not interested in using Linux is how fragmented the whole ecosystem is. There are a ten different ways to install apps, and not all apps

Part of the reason I’m not interested in using Linux is how fragmented the whole ecosystem is. There are a ten different ways to install apps, and not all apps available with a single method. Sometimes it’s a .deb, sometimes AppImage, sometimes .tar.gz, sometimes native binary, sometimes apt-get, but then sometimes the version available via apt-get is outdated so you have to build the app yourself or add some new repositories. Then of course snaps. It’s a nightmare. I don’t want to deal with all of this, I just want to use software.

wkat4242 3y ago
The funny part is that was the problem they were trying to solve with flatpak, snap, appimage etc. But of course every vendor wants their own IP to be the big winner so we end up in this situation: https://xkcd.com/927/ https://xkcd.com/927/
- severino 3y ago
  Yes, wouldn't it be nice if they just standarized one type of "Linux installer" package that contained everything and then let every distro decide how they wanted to install it? Be it in a classical way where you just grab the program files from the package and install its dependencies using the distribution's package manager, or in a more container-like approach where you copy everything, including the libraries, etc? I know it would not be simple nor easy...
- lproven 3y ago
  [Article author/submitter here] You did note that I included that specific XKCD link in the article itself, right?
worble 3y ago
Let's compare this to windows If I want to install an app, it might be on the windows store. If it's not then you'll probably have to download it from the internet. If you're lucky it's a link on the developers website, if you're unlucky it's a download from a 3rd party site like softpedia, github or sourceforge, and you have to spend at least a little time making sure you're downloading the official package and not a scam. If you want to offload this to a 3rd party you can use chocolately. Or scoop. Or winget. There are lots of developer tools that only distribute via the software packager that they're built in, ie cargo, npm, or pip. Or I want to download a game, well let's see, that game might be distributed on steam. Or the Epic Games Store. Or Origin. I'm just trying to highlight that this issue is not specific to Linux or Windows (I've never used a mac so I don't know how that compares), app distribution is just a hard and still unsolved problem. Personally, between my distributions official repo, flatpak and steam, I'm pretty happy that 90% of software I need is only a few clicks away with minimal hassle.
- icepat 3y ago
  Mac is a bit fragmented too. Either you use the App Store, you download a DMG file from the developer and enable third-party unsigned code execution, install using Homebrew, or install X-Code and use Macports. Homebrew has most CLI stuff, but for apps it's just as fragmented. When it comes to uninstalling things, you "drop it in the bin", but that just deletes the executable. You may have to manually clean up stray files and folders yourself. Overall I find Linux is better in terms of software installation than Mac, but I like to call Mac "Corporately supported Unix". While I love Linux and use it often, I always have a Mac around as a backup in the event my Linux machine succumbs to entropy. A Mac may slow down for running UI systems, but anything in the CLI is rock solid, and will remain stable and usable for years. I've never had a Windows install last in a usable state for long enough. I find they succumb to system entropy far faster than any other OS.
- askonomm 3y ago
  I didn’t even mention the means of obtaining the app, all of which you said applies to all operating systems, I was simply talking about the difficulty of installing one once you already have the app. In Windows it is mostly always an .exe file and that’s it, on Mac it’s a .dmg or .app file and that’s it.
MattPalmer1086 3y ago
It's not really any more consistent on Windows. Exes, MSIs, CABs, zip file, app store...
- lproven 3y ago
  [Article author/submitter here] Which is why I wrote: "Pity the poor Windows/Mac users."
the_common_man 3y ago
So, you use Mac?
- askonomm 3y ago
  Mostly a Mac yeah, sometimes Windows. I’m not saying there is no fragmentation here, but the majority of apps are distributed in the same way, whereas on Linux, at least as per my experience, there is no consistency at all to speak of.
christophilus 3y ago
It’s not really a problem, in my experience. Step 1: pick a distro (I use Fedora) Step 2: install stuff using their package manager (I use dnf) Step 3: be productive (HackerNews wastes way more of my time than Linux ever has) Anyway, for me, Linux is great.
- askonomm 3y ago
  Install Chrome (.deb), install JetBrains toolbox / IDE’s (.tar.gz). These are not available via the package manager. And there is a ton more stuff like that.
eternityforest 3y ago
Snap does a really good job of solving this. The software selection is very good, between Apt and snap, which are both browsable with the same GUI. The snap versions are not outdated, because they don't have to deal with the whole shared dependencies thing like traditional Linux packages, they bundle everything and don't have to stay in sync with everything else. It's not quite as perfect as Android, but stuff generally just works. I used to have a collection of AppImages, now all that is in the snap store. I haven't seen any custom package repos or .tar.gz installers(With the exception of Ardour and their downloadable installer, and Chrome's .deb installer) since switching. I think one of my next tech project s is probably going to be learning to create Snaps myself
- pmontra 3y ago
  > It's not quite as perfect as Android, but stuff generally just works. My Android phone is telling me on the notifications bar that I have updates for YouTube and Google Meet. This morning told me that some app were put into deep sleep. I checked which one and it was F-Droid. I opened it and found two apps to upgrade in there. Then I know that I have apps from the Samsung Store to upgrade but I somewhat silenced that store. I never installed anything from there nor I logged into it. I wish it goes away and that this Samsung phone is not the smallest and lightest Android still on the market. Then there is K-9 which I install from an APK because they severely busted the UI after 5.6000. So maybe Android is perfect but it could be more perfect. My Debian 10 laptop is a mix of deb, docker images, downloaded installers, package managers for several languages, so more or less the same stuff as my phone except that it doesn't disable apps that it mistakenly detects as not used.
- bondarchuk 3y ago
  > Snap does a really good job of solving this. xkcd 927 how standards proliferate
  - lproven 3y ago
    Which, again, is linked and mentioned in TFA. I know because I wrote it. « This is better than not having one – or, even worse, having more than one, as XKCD 927 beautifully illustrates. »

wkat4242 3y ago

The funny part is that was the problem they were trying to solve with flatpak, snap, appimage etc. But of course every vendor wants their own IP to be the big winner so we end up in this situation: https://xkcd.com/927/ https://xkcd.com/927/

severino 3y ago
Yes, wouldn't it be nice if they just standarized one type of "Linux installer" package that contained everything and then let every distro decide how they wanted to install it? Be it in a classical way where you just grab the program files from the package and install its dependencies using the distribution's package manager, or in a more container-like approach where you copy everything, including the libraries, etc? I know it would not be simple nor easy...
lproven 3y ago
[Article author/submitter here] You did note that I included that specific XKCD link in the article itself, right?

worble 3y ago

Let's compare this to windows If I want to install an app, it might be on the windows store. If it's not then you'll probably have to download it from the internet. If you're lucky it's a link on the developers website, if you're unlucky it's a download from a 3rd party site like softpedia, github or sourceforge, and you have to spend at least a little time making sure you're downloading the official package and not a scam. If you want to offload this to a 3rd party you can use chocolately. Or scoop. Or winget. There are lots of developer tools that only distribute via the software packager that they're built in, ie cargo, npm, or pip. Or I want to download a game, well let's see, that game might be distributed on steam. Or the Epic Games Store. Or Origin. I'm just trying to highlight that this issue is not specific to Linux or Windows (I've never used a mac so I don't know how that compares), app distribution is just a hard and still unsolved problem. Personally, between my distributions official repo, flatpak and steam, I'm pretty happy that 90% of software I need is only a few clicks away with minimal hassle.

icepat 3y ago
Mac is a bit fragmented too. Either you use the App Store, you download a DMG file from the developer and enable third-party unsigned code execution, install using Homebrew, or install X-Code and use Macports. Homebrew has most CLI stuff, but for apps it's just as fragmented. When it comes to uninstalling things, you "drop it in the bin", but that just deletes the executable. You may have to manually clean up stray files and folders yourself. Overall I find Linux is better in terms of software installation than Mac, but I like to call Mac "Corporately supported Unix". While I love Linux and use it often, I always have a Mac around as a backup in the event my Linux machine succumbs to entropy. A Mac may slow down for running UI systems, but anything in the CLI is rock solid, and will remain stable and usable for years. I've never had a Windows install last in a usable state for long enough. I find they succumb to system entropy far faster than any other OS.
askonomm 3y ago
I didn’t even mention the means of obtaining the app, all of which you said applies to all operating systems, I was simply talking about the difficulty of installing one once you already have the app. In Windows it is mostly always an .exe file and that’s it, on Mac it’s a .dmg or .app file and that’s it.

MattPalmer1086 3y ago

It's not really any more consistent on Windows. Exes, MSIs, CABs, zip file, app store...

lproven 3y ago
[Article author/submitter here] Which is why I wrote: "Pity the poor Windows/Mac users."

the_common_man 3y ago

So, you use Mac?

askonomm 3y ago
Mostly a Mac yeah, sometimes Windows. I’m not saying there is no fragmentation here, but the majority of apps are distributed in the same way, whereas on Linux, at least as per my experience, there is no consistency at all to speak of.

christophilus 3y ago

It’s not really a problem, in my experience. Step 1: pick a distro (I use Fedora) Step 2: install stuff using their package manager (I use dnf) Step 3: be productive (HackerNews wastes way more of my time than Linux ever has) Anyway, for me, Linux is great.

askonomm 3y ago
Install Chrome (.deb), install JetBrains toolbox / IDE’s (.tar.gz). These are not available via the package manager. And there is a ton more stuff like that.

eternityforest 3y ago

Snap does a really good job of solving this. The software selection is very good, between Apt and snap, which are both browsable with the same GUI. The snap versions are not outdated, because they don't have to deal with the whole shared dependencies thing like traditional Linux packages, they bundle everything and don't have to stay in sync with everything else. It's not quite as perfect as Android, but stuff generally just works. I used to have a collection of AppImages, now all that is in the snap store. I haven't seen any custom package repos or .tar.gz installers(With the exception of Ardour and their downloadable installer, and Chrome's .deb installer) since switching. I think one of my next tech project s is probably going to be learning to create Snaps myself

pmontra 3y ago
> It's not quite as perfect as Android, but stuff generally just works. My Android phone is telling me on the notifications bar that I have updates for YouTube and Google Meet. This morning told me that some app were put into deep sleep. I checked which one and it was F-Droid. I opened it and found two apps to upgrade in there. Then I know that I have apps from the Samsung Store to upgrade but I somewhat silenced that store. I never installed anything from there nor I logged into it. I wish it goes away and that this Samsung phone is not the smallest and lightest Android still on the market. Then there is K-9 which I install from an APK because they severely busted the UI after 5.6000. So maybe Android is perfect but it could be more perfect. My Debian 10 laptop is a mix of deb, docker images, downloaded installers, package managers for several languages, so more or less the same stuff as my phone except that it doesn't disable apps that it mistakenly detects as not used.
bondarchuk 3y ago
> Snap does a really good job of solving this. xkcd 927 how standards proliferate
- lproven 3y ago
  Which, again, is linked and mentioned in TFA. I know because I wrote it. « This is better than not having one – or, even worse, having more than one, as XKCD 927 beautifully illustrates. »