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This is a non sequitur. The mines were very far from populated or agricultural areas. They were situated in some of the least habitable parts of the US. It has

This is a non sequitur. The mines were very far from populated or agricultural areas. They were situated in some of the least habitable parts of the US. It has nothing to do with the actual well-being of people. The US is blessed with incredible mineral wealth that is rarely exploited anymore because so many people harbor these kinds of naive assumptions, which manifests as regulations. Consequently, we depend on countries like China to supply these minerals since they are not held hostage by these misconceptions. Wyoming’s advantage over California is that they have a reality-based perspective on mineral resource extraction, instead of outsourcing it to China so that they can pretend to be environmentally virtuous.

Retric 3y ago
Regulations cover the general case not just each individual case separately . It’s reasonable to offer exceptions for mines in the Mojave, but baking that into the regulations requires even more complexity.
ajross 3y ago
> This is a non sequitur. The mines were very far from populated or agricultural areas. The Mountain Pass mine in the link above is just off I15, maybe a 45 minute drive from Las Vegas. That's not right on top of a housing development, but it's hardly "remote".
- lazide 3y ago
  You’re kidding right? That is very much the definition of ‘middle of nowhere’. [https://maps.app.goo.gl/wV1K9HSgnbBN6Ye58?g_st=ic https://maps.app.goo.gl/wV1K9HSgnbBN6Ye58?g_st=ic] Groom Lake and the National Test Site (where the US set off literally hundreds of nuclear bombs) is roughly the same distance from Las Vegas, just in a slightly different direction. [https://maps.app.goo.gl/oKc83mrnptUSPVJ2A?g_st=ic https://maps.app.goo.gl/oKc83mrnptUSPVJ2A?g_st=ic] That area is about as remote and in hospitable to human life as anyone can find in the lower 48 once you get off the highway. The only way it would get more remote is if someone kept driving and took a turn somewhere along there. I’ve spent plenty of time out in those deserts. It’s very easy to not show up on someone’s radar ever again [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_Valley_Germans https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_Valley_Germans].
  - rrrix1 3y ago
    Exactly this. 45 minutes at 65mph is plenty far away for just about everything mining related with the sole exception of considering watersheds. Watershed impacts are actually what killed gold mining in the California foothills - there's still plenty of gold there, we just can't get it with current technologies. Mixing drinking water, mines and mineral resources doesn't end well for anyone.
    - lazide 3y ago
      Most of those areas have pocket reservoirs/don’t share groundwater meaningfully. Lots of isolated areas due to the geology. Same reason that the nuclear test site hazard is mostly blown dust, not water contamination despite literally hundreds and hundreds of nuclear detonations. They have their own isolated watershed and water table, like most of those valleys.
  - ajross 3y ago
    Dude, there's a golf course just up the road. This is exurban Vegas in 2023. It was "remote and inhospitable" in WW2, before anyone bothered to put a city there. That's an extremely high traffic interstate highway a mile south. The LA/Vegas corridor may look pristine and empty (owing in no small part to significant regulation that keeps it that way!), but it's not remotely a "low density" population area.
    - robertlagrant 3y ago
      > owing in no small part to significant regulation that keeps it that way What regulation keeps it that way?
      - ajross 3y ago
        We're literally in a subthread discussing a mine that shut down because it couldn't expand...
      - lazide 3y ago
        Anything on the California side has to deal with extensive environmental impact regulation, and deserts are fragile. That mine is in California. If you go exploring in Balarat or around Death Valley, it’s easy to find intact mines that are 70+ years old with everything nearly intact (except for the rat nests anyway). As to if that regulation is appropriate given its remote location, etc. that’s up to the California state legislature. Notably, mining is a much larger part of the state economy in Nevada, on the other side of the border.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
Mistletoe 3y ago
Here’s a nice photo essay about what you are wishing on California. https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20150402-the-worst-place-on-earth https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20150402-the-worst-place-...
- nwellinghoff 3y ago
  Yikes. Absolutely devastating.
- fragmede 3y ago
  Silicon Valley was a superfund site supporting this news heavy industry of silicon transistors before it was paved over for the computer industry.
- marcusverus 3y ago
  Environmentalists and scaremongering. Name a better couple. America is not China. The EPA still exists.
  - partitioned 3y ago
    To be fair without environmentalists the EPA would not have existed and would also cease to exist in the future. Hth
  - Andrex 3y ago
    > The EPA still exists. Less and less of it the more a certain party is in power. https://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/4291864-house-gop-approves-cutting-epa-budget-by-nearly-40-percent/ https://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/4291864-house-...
    - Freedom2 3y ago
      The EPA is largely useless. Businesses, driven by consumer demand and public reputation, have incentives to adopt environmentally friendly practices. Moreover, the legal system can handle disputes and damages related to environmental harm, thus making a specialized agency like the EPA redundant.
renegade-otter 3y ago
Laws and regulations increase dramatically with population density in a jurisdiction. It's not a US thing - it's a "civilization thing". More people per square mile and the blast radius of reckless profiteering and all kinds of criminal mischief explodes. This is why Alaska has even more liberal gun laws than Texas - it has more bears than people - literally. Especially in the US, where these regulations lag severely, waiting until the abuse and damage gets completely out of hand.
bluejekyll 3y ago
The problem with mining is generally the externalities are not fully priced into the costs associated with the mines. Coal is a very messy business, and its aging so we get to see the after effects on the environment from all of its by products. The companies go bankrupt leaving states with massive cleanup concerns. To properly factor these things in and make it safer to mine in the US would make it unprofitable compared to less regulated countries. Saying it’s in the middle of no where doesn’t mean it has no impact on others. Coal slurry spills and similar have washed downstream in creeks and rivers causing drinking water issues in places like West Virginia in recent years. Here’s a simple thing with chemicals for cleaning coal where basic eye sight inspections meant anyone could have seen and recognized the issues and done something, but instead were allowed to fail, causing mass poisoning concerns for 300,000 people, https://grist.org/politics/no-rules-governed-tank-that-leaked-coal-cleaning-poison-into-w-va-river/ https://grist.org/politics/no-rules-governed-tank-that-leake...

Retric 3y ago

Regulations cover the general case not just each individual case separately . It’s reasonable to offer exceptions for mines in the Mojave, but baking that into the regulations requires even more complexity.

ajross 3y ago

> This is a non sequitur. The mines were very far from populated or agricultural areas. The Mountain Pass mine in the link above is just off I15, maybe a 45 minute drive from Las Vegas. That's not right on top of a housing development, but it's hardly "remote".

lazide 3y ago
You’re kidding right? That is very much the definition of ‘middle of nowhere’. [https://maps.app.goo.gl/wV1K9HSgnbBN6Ye58?g_st=ic https://maps.app.goo.gl/wV1K9HSgnbBN6Ye58?g_st=ic] Groom Lake and the National Test Site (where the US set off literally hundreds of nuclear bombs) is roughly the same distance from Las Vegas, just in a slightly different direction. [https://maps.app.goo.gl/oKc83mrnptUSPVJ2A?g_st=ic https://maps.app.goo.gl/oKc83mrnptUSPVJ2A?g_st=ic] That area is about as remote and in hospitable to human life as anyone can find in the lower 48 once you get off the highway. The only way it would get more remote is if someone kept driving and took a turn somewhere along there. I’ve spent plenty of time out in those deserts. It’s very easy to not show up on someone’s radar ever again [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_Valley_Germans https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_Valley_Germans].
- rrrix1 3y ago
  Exactly this. 45 minutes at 65mph is plenty far away for just about everything mining related with the sole exception of considering watersheds. Watershed impacts are actually what killed gold mining in the California foothills - there's still plenty of gold there, we just can't get it with current technologies. Mixing drinking water, mines and mineral resources doesn't end well for anyone.
  - lazide 3y ago
    Most of those areas have pocket reservoirs/don’t share groundwater meaningfully. Lots of isolated areas due to the geology. Same reason that the nuclear test site hazard is mostly blown dust, not water contamination despite literally hundreds and hundreds of nuclear detonations. They have their own isolated watershed and water table, like most of those valleys.
- ajross 3y ago
  Dude, there's a golf course just up the road. This is exurban Vegas in 2023. It was "remote and inhospitable" in WW2, before anyone bothered to put a city there. That's an extremely high traffic interstate highway a mile south. The LA/Vegas corridor may look pristine and empty (owing in no small part to significant regulation that keeps it that way!), but it's not remotely a "low density" population area.
  - robertlagrant 3y ago
    > owing in no small part to significant regulation that keeps it that way What regulation keeps it that way?
    - ajross 3y ago
      We're literally in a subthread discussing a mine that shut down because it couldn't expand...
    - lazide 3y ago
      Anything on the California side has to deal with extensive environmental impact regulation, and deserts are fragile. That mine is in California. If you go exploring in Balarat or around Death Valley, it’s easy to find intact mines that are 70+ years old with everything nearly intact (except for the rat nests anyway). As to if that regulation is appropriate given its remote location, etc. that’s up to the California state legislature. Notably, mining is a much larger part of the state economy in Nevada, on the other side of the border.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

Mistletoe 3y ago

Here’s a nice photo essay about what you are wishing on California. https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20150402-the-worst-place-on-earth https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20150402-the-worst-place-...

nwellinghoff 3y ago
Yikes. Absolutely devastating.
fragmede 3y ago
Silicon Valley was a superfund site supporting this news heavy industry of silicon transistors before it was paved over for the computer industry.
marcusverus 3y ago
Environmentalists and scaremongering. Name a better couple. America is not China. The EPA still exists.
- partitioned 3y ago
  To be fair without environmentalists the EPA would not have existed and would also cease to exist in the future. Hth
- Andrex 3y ago
  > The EPA still exists. Less and less of it the more a certain party is in power. https://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/4291864-house-gop-approves-cutting-epa-budget-by-nearly-40-percent/ https://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/4291864-house-...
  - Freedom2 3y ago
    The EPA is largely useless. Businesses, driven by consumer demand and public reputation, have incentives to adopt environmentally friendly practices. Moreover, the legal system can handle disputes and damages related to environmental harm, thus making a specialized agency like the EPA redundant.

renegade-otter 3y ago

Laws and regulations increase dramatically with population density in a jurisdiction. It's not a US thing - it's a "civilization thing". More people per square mile and the blast radius of reckless profiteering and all kinds of criminal mischief explodes. This is why Alaska has even more liberal gun laws than Texas - it has more bears than people - literally. Especially in the US, where these regulations lag severely, waiting until the abuse and damage gets completely out of hand.

bluejekyll 3y ago

The problem with mining is generally the externalities are not fully priced into the costs associated with the mines. Coal is a very messy business, and its aging so we get to see the after effects on the environment from all of its by products. The companies go bankrupt leaving states with massive cleanup concerns. To properly factor these things in and make it safer to mine in the US would make it unprofitable compared to less regulated countries. Saying it’s in the middle of no where doesn’t mean it has no impact on others. Coal slurry spills and similar have washed downstream in creeks and rivers causing drinking water issues in places like West Virginia in recent years. Here’s a simple thing with chemicals for cleaning coal where basic eye sight inspections meant anyone could have seen and recognized the issues and done something, but instead were allowed to fail, causing mass poisoning concerns for 300,000 people, https://grist.org/politics/no-rules-governed-tank-that-leaked-coal-cleaning-poison-into-w-va-river/ https://grist.org/politics/no-rules-governed-tank-that-leake...