4 ms·

Makes sense; if you want to build a lunar base, you gotta have Venezuela and Azerbaijan on your team, otherwise it's basically futile.

ianlevesque 3y ago
In the United States the space race led to a ton of STEM education, and secondary technology use cases. It would amazing to get similar benefits in those countries.
- xwdv 3y ago
  We need those benefits for the US.
  - rayrey 3y ago
    Fix the immigration system
    - EFreethought 3y ago
      We don't necessarily need to do that. We just need less anti-intellectualism and to reduce the power/influence of the religious right in the US.
      - SoftTalker 3y ago
        People were generally much more religious and conservative in the 1950s/60s than they are today no? How many Black astronauts were in the Apollo program?
  - inopinatus 3y ago
    No, we need those benefits for the whole of humanity.
    - xwdv 3y ago
      Much of humanity depends on the US. You save the US, you save the world.
      - BillTheDuck 3y ago
        Oh, Please. Don't put the US on a pedestal. There is a shitload of issues that the US needs to fix and a little humility in accepting that others have better solutions, is one of them.
        xwdv 3y ago
        The internal issues of the US are of no concern to other nations, the only thing they care about is what the US can do for them and the rest of the world.
        kube-system 3y ago
        For all of the US's problems, Pax Americana has been statistically pretty damn successful.
alephnerd 3y ago
It helps those countries further enhance their own Military R&D (ICBM research often goes hand in hand with Rocket research - that's why India and China started their space programs) while also becoming a PR coup for China+Russia.
GolfPopper 3y ago
Venezuela would make a pretty attractive launch site.
- ArnoVW 3y ago
  only for retro-grade orbits, meaning you lose the "boost" from the rotation of the earth (in fact, you have to work against it) there's a reason that there are launch sites in French Guiana and Florida.
  - closewith 3y ago
    Where do you think Venezuela is?
    - ArnoVW 3y ago
      ah. serves me right for geeking out during boring meeting. confused it in my head with Colombia. Visited both, should have known better =)
  - Someone 3y ago
    Venezuela has an eastern coast that, I think, would be suitable for a launch site if you put it south of Trinidad and Tobago. It’s far from population centers, though (1), so it would require building/growing a city for personnel to live. It also appears to be swampy (not a show stopper, as Florida shows, but not ideal, either), and it has monsoons, so the weather may be a showstopper. I also would be worried about political stability of the country. (1) Apple Maps shows Tucupita as about the only thing near that coast. It’s about 100km away and, according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tucupita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tucupita has a population of less than 100,000.
somenameforme 3y ago
In living memory of most of us, China was just a deeply impoverished nation known for little more than exporting cheap unreliable crap. Any achievement they did make was framed as being stolen from somebody else. Yet now, their successes in space, industry, science, and technology are completely taken for granted. Funny how quickly things change! The status quo of the world is constantly shifting. Those nations which strive to advance, will. Those nations which rest on their laurels of achievements past, will gradually find themselves with little left to cling to beyond those laurels. I think it's awesome to see previously neglected nations beginning to be able to take part in major space programs. They also come with unique benefits. Like somebody else mentioned, for one thing Venezuela is in a dream scenario for launches. Eastern exposure to the ocean and substantially closer to the equator than e.g. Florida. This means ships taking off from there are able to more optimally sort of 'sling shot' off of Earth's rotation - the Earth rotates Eastward, and fastest at the equator. Same reason that in Andy Weir's Artemis novel, Kenya ended up being a world leader in space. And there's no logical reason this wouldn't happen. Countries can be developed, but they can't be moved.
- idlewords 3y ago
  Well said. And one further advantage of Venezuela is that crowds of people looting the rocket on the pad will greatly reduce the launch weight.
- schiffern 3y ago
  > Any achievement they did make was... stolen from somebody else. Yet now their successes in space, industry, science, and technology are completely taken for granted. The two aren't necessarily in contradiction, you may note. Do we have reliable evidence showing Chinese IP theft has slowed? Many nations "bootstrap" internal industry with organized mass IP theft. The US extensively (and quite intentionally) stole from Britain's industrial IP, for instance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Slater https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Slater
  - adrian_b 3y ago
    Besides the often quoted IP stealing from GB, there are also more recent examples. At the end of WWII, not only the Soviet Union has moved piece by piece many industrial factories from Germany to Russia, but also USA and GB have "stolen" massive amounts of IP from the occupied Germany. One of the most notorious cases in how the American industry of making magnetic tape recorders (e.g. Ampex) and of making magnetic tapes for them has been founded based on the samples brought back from Germany. The case of the liquid-fueled rockets directly connected to this Apollo story needs no further mention. Whenever they could get away with it, no country has refrained from copying foreign better technology. While there in no doubt that China must have done this frequently in the past, in recent years there are little chances for them to benefit from this, because now in many domains their products are much more innovative than anything made in USA, and also in research publications they have many that are also more innovative. I do not believe that sabotaging the Chinese companies that were on the brink to take most of the market share from US companies like Qualcomm and Micron has been the right strategy for counteracting the Chinese threat. This is just a temporary setback for them and there is the risk that they could emerge from it stronger, no longer fearing any US blackmail. This should have been either saved for a more critical moment, when it could have a greater effect, or the so-called "sanctions" should have been real sanctions, and not just anti-competitive measures, i.e. they should have been tied to some political demands made to China, e.g. to recognize Taiwan as an independent country, or to give up their claims to extend their maritime borders.

ianlevesque 3y ago

In the United States the space race led to a ton of STEM education, and secondary technology use cases. It would amazing to get similar benefits in those countries.

xwdv 3y ago
We need those benefits for the US.
- rayrey 3y ago
  Fix the immigration system
  - EFreethought 3y ago
    We don't necessarily need to do that. We just need less anti-intellectualism and to reduce the power/influence of the religious right in the US.
    - SoftTalker 3y ago
      People were generally much more religious and conservative in the 1950s/60s than they are today no? How many Black astronauts were in the Apollo program?
- inopinatus 3y ago
  No, we need those benefits for the whole of humanity.
  - xwdv 3y ago
    Much of humanity depends on the US. You save the US, you save the world.
    - BillTheDuck 3y ago
      Oh, Please. Don't put the US on a pedestal. There is a shitload of issues that the US needs to fix and a little humility in accepting that others have better solutions, is one of them.
      - xwdv 3y ago
        The internal issues of the US are of no concern to other nations, the only thing they care about is what the US can do for them and the rest of the world.
      - kube-system 3y ago
        For all of the US's problems, Pax Americana has been statistically pretty damn successful.

alephnerd 3y ago

It helps those countries further enhance their own Military R&D (ICBM research often goes hand in hand with Rocket research - that's why India and China started their space programs) while also becoming a PR coup for China+Russia.

GolfPopper 3y ago

Venezuela would make a pretty attractive launch site.

ArnoVW 3y ago
only for retro-grade orbits, meaning you lose the "boost" from the rotation of the earth (in fact, you have to work against it) there's a reason that there are launch sites in French Guiana and Florida.
- closewith 3y ago
  Where do you think Venezuela is?
  - ArnoVW 3y ago
    ah. serves me right for geeking out during boring meeting. confused it in my head with Colombia. Visited both, should have known better =)
- Someone 3y ago
  Venezuela has an eastern coast that, I think, would be suitable for a launch site if you put it south of Trinidad and Tobago. It’s far from population centers, though (1), so it would require building/growing a city for personnel to live. It also appears to be swampy (not a show stopper, as Florida shows, but not ideal, either), and it has monsoons, so the weather may be a showstopper. I also would be worried about political stability of the country. (1) Apple Maps shows Tucupita as about the only thing near that coast. It’s about 100km away and, according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tucupita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tucupita has a population of less than 100,000.

somenameforme 3y ago

In living memory of most of us, China was just a deeply impoverished nation known for little more than exporting cheap unreliable crap. Any achievement they did make was framed as being stolen from somebody else. Yet now, their successes in space, industry, science, and technology are completely taken for granted. Funny how quickly things change! The status quo of the world is constantly shifting. Those nations which strive to advance, will. Those nations which rest on their laurels of achievements past, will gradually find themselves with little left to cling to beyond those laurels. I think it's awesome to see previously neglected nations beginning to be able to take part in major space programs. They also come with unique benefits. Like somebody else mentioned, for one thing Venezuela is in a dream scenario for launches. Eastern exposure to the ocean and substantially closer to the equator than e.g. Florida. This means ships taking off from there are able to more optimally sort of 'sling shot' off of Earth's rotation - the Earth rotates Eastward, and fastest at the equator. Same reason that in Andy Weir's Artemis novel, Kenya ended up being a world leader in space. And there's no logical reason this wouldn't happen. Countries can be developed, but they can't be moved.

idlewords 3y ago
Well said. And one further advantage of Venezuela is that crowds of people looting the rocket on the pad will greatly reduce the launch weight.
schiffern 3y ago
> Any achievement they did make was... stolen from somebody else. Yet now their successes in space, industry, science, and technology are completely taken for granted. The two aren't necessarily in contradiction, you may note. Do we have reliable evidence showing Chinese IP theft has slowed? Many nations "bootstrap" internal industry with organized mass IP theft. The US extensively (and quite intentionally) stole from Britain's industrial IP, for instance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Slater https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Slater
- adrian_b 3y ago
  Besides the often quoted IP stealing from GB, there are also more recent examples. At the end of WWII, not only the Soviet Union has moved piece by piece many industrial factories from Germany to Russia, but also USA and GB have "stolen" massive amounts of IP from the occupied Germany. One of the most notorious cases in how the American industry of making magnetic tape recorders (e.g. Ampex) and of making magnetic tapes for them has been founded based on the samples brought back from Germany. The case of the liquid-fueled rockets directly connected to this Apollo story needs no further mention. Whenever they could get away with it, no country has refrained from copying foreign better technology. While there in no doubt that China must have done this frequently in the past, in recent years there are little chances for them to benefit from this, because now in many domains their products are much more innovative than anything made in USA, and also in research publications they have many that are also more innovative. I do not believe that sabotaging the Chinese companies that were on the brink to take most of the market share from US companies like Qualcomm and Micron has been the right strategy for counteracting the Chinese threat. This is just a temporary setback for them and there is the risk that they could emerge from it stronger, no longer fearing any US blackmail. This should have been either saved for a more critical moment, when it could have a greater effect, or the so-called "sanctions" should have been real sanctions, and not just anti-competitive measures, i.e. they should have been tied to some political demands made to China, e.g. to recognize Taiwan as an independent country, or to give up their claims to extend their maritime borders.