3 ms·

Red State Drivers Turn Up Their Noses at EVs Despite Incentives

11 points by wolverine876 3y ago

wolverine876 3y ago
The extreme reactionaryism is a problem for any policy. What is very dissapointing and disheartening to me is that the policymakers didn't anticipate it and do nothing about it. It is obviously an enormous problem, and they keep their heads in the sand. That is very demoralizing to everyone - even the reactionaries, I would think.
- RicoElectrico 3y ago
  In the climate in which "oppose the current thing" is a valid platform in many voters' eyes - I don't know how can we achieve that. This isn't endemic to USA either. Polish alt-right party Konfederacja was criticizing government's inaction during the onset of COVID just to turn 180 degrees when restrictions were instated.
  - wolverine876 3y ago
    > In the climate in which "oppose the current thing" is a valid platform in many voters' eyes - I don't know how can we achieve that. Problem solving Step 0: Analyze if and how you're helpless Step 1: Start problem solving The trick to problem solving is to skip step 0, which is a complete waste of resources. Moving on to step 1: Note that the reactionaries, world wide, have changed the political climate to something unimaginable and unprecedented in ~7 years in the US, and they have nothing but lies, despair, hatred, violence and disorder to sell. But they skipped step 0 - good for them, because anyone would have told them it's impossible. We have truth, public welfare, freedom, peace, prosperity, integrity, etc. to sell. Most of history has been on our side. We can change the climate too. But first, we need to move on from step 0.
quantified 3y ago
> North Dakota, Mississippi, West Virginia, Oklahoma and Wyoming Except for Mississippi, those are also carbon-production states. 3 of them would inspire range anxiety, how many Superchargers are there in North Dakota or Wyoming? Also, the average car is more of an SUV or pickup on those roads and larger ones too. More Lincoln Aviators outside of those listed blue states.
- progne 3y ago
  And incomes are lower in red states and EVs are still very much a premium product. There are fewer Lamborghinis per capita in red states too.
  - acdha 3y ago
    EVs start at $27k, a bit over half of the _average_ new vehicle price last year, and less than that if you look at the most popular SUV and truck segments. There are pricey ones but that’s the same as the $70+k truck market where the manufacturers have seen huge profits from steering buyers towards the luxury models with the highest margins.
h2odragon 3y ago
Make electric "go cart" grade parts more available. We need electric 4 wheelers. Let Rednecks learn to hack on battery and speed controller systems in a recreational setting, and they'll be much more open to adopting them for situations needing more reliability.
- ttymck 3y ago
  How do you make them more available and who is in a position to do so?
  - h2odragon 3y ago
    Subsidize them like big EVs got? make the "recreational" grade ones eligible for the medicare reimbursement that the mobility scooters get. that'll be a big kick in the market. there's a need for "all terrain" mobility scooters, anyhow.
    - ttymck 3y ago
      And then I can drive it on the road? Who is selling these vehicles?
Always_Anon 3y ago
I wonder how much Elon Musk becoming a right-wing darling will change the perception of EVs in red states. Cybertruck anyone?
the_optimist 3y ago
It’s more frequently inferior to have a shorter-range fuel source when you regularly drive longer distances. Journalists, particularly at Bloomberg, often approach observations with bias and ignorance that actively interferes with thinking and problem solving.
- epiccoleman 3y ago
  Right, this reads like classic "what's wrong with Kansas" type analysis. There's lots of potential reasons that EVs might not make sense for people in rural environments. Serviceability, range, towing capability, and maybe most importantly just expense. Up until the last year or three Tesla was close to the only option, and even though the new offerings aren't universally as expensive as a Tesla, you're still looking at new car prices, which are substantial. Looks like the cheapest Bolt is 27k, which works out to something like $4-500 monthly payment. Wouldn't fit into my budget, and we make about twice the median income. Not hard to imagine many, many people making a similar financial call
- wolverine876 3y ago
  Is there specific evidence of bias and ignorance?
  - the_optimist 3y ago
    Typically this shows up in inferences about supposedly malign or misguided activities that some other group engages in, without asking inquiring, exploring, studying, or analyzing. Evidence-free implied superiority in judgment. Playing to tropes. In this state, contradictory evidence confirms the bias! Might as well park your brain on the bedside table before heading out.
    - wolverine876 3y ago
      So no evidence?
toomuchtodo 3y ago
Slowly increase gas taxes and let the problem work itself out (assuming you’re still providing EV subsidies so as to not marginalize the poor). Only need to do it until the petroleum supply chain reaches a flow rate where it is no longer economically viable in a geography.
- erkt 3y ago
  Seems awfully authoritarian. Give people a clean option like hydrogen fuel created by green power. Electric cars require infrastructure that even Blue states like California lack without serious investment. Failing to put yourself in the shoes of a small town that cannot afford to triple each homes KW capacity is a serious gap in perspective and the desire to tax people until they bend to your will may be indicative of why our country is falling apart.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - wolverine876 3y ago
    > Failing to put yourself in the shoes of a small town that cannot afford to triple each homes KW That sounds possible, but is it really a problem? Regardless, the OP seems to say that disinterest in EVs correlates with political alignment and not with local population. > Seems awfully authoritarian. > the desire to tax people until they bend to your will That is quite a description of the ancient, commonplace art of tax incentives and disincentives. The taxes, if implemeted correctly, actually enable people to make informed decisions. It causes the product to reflect the true cost, moving externalities (in this case, the climate change damage) into the price. In other words, it's just people paying to clean up their own mess.
    - erkt 3y ago
      >That sounds possible, but is it really a problem? Yes. Level 2 Charging takes around 30-40amps. How many amps does your home have? Can your utility handle all your neighbors doubling capacity? Can you charge your car and still run your electric furnace in a blizzard? These are valid concerns. We barely have the grid capacity to handle the AC in heat waves, let alone everyone plugging in their cars at 5PM when they get home. >disinterest in EVs correlates with political alignment and not with local population. Political alignment correlates with local population. You can make an educated guess that a rural town leans red, and a city leans blue. A city will also have a more significant tax base and can afford long term infrastructure development. A small town is not in the same position. >the ancient, commonplace art of tax incentives and disincentives. And they have often been called authoritarian when they are excised without adequate representation. >The taxes, if implemented correctly, actually enable people to make informed decisions. My concern is that things aren't being implemented correctly. That the regulations and tax incentives and disincentives make lots of sense for people in one position and not a lot of sense for people in different positions. I think we are ignoring the plight of people in rural communities and failing to recognize that there are immense hurdles for even dense cities. Poor people do not get to buy new cars. They certainly do not get the benefits of subsidized purchase prices. If anything you have poor people subsiding the luxury purchases of wealthy people. In other words its forcing society to collective clean up the messes of people who can already afford to clean up their own messes. New cars become used cars, but if the battery needs to be replaced then you are talking about a cost resembling another car. As someone who believes in climate change, who is under no illusion that we are having massive species loss, why are we all so convinced this means our own extinction? Most of the species that lived on this planet are not captured in the fossil record. The globe was covered in ice 10,000 years ago and life still exists today. If in a hundred years the world is a Jurassic tropical climate, why are we so convinced that this is existential? Species will adapt and survive and evolve. Some won't. C'est la vie. Besides eventually we will figure out that pesticides have had a far greater impact on species loss than a little bit of rough weather.
ZeroGravitas 3y ago
Headline says "Despite Incentives" but subheadline contradicts this, suggesting that red states have lagged on providing incentives. edit: first paragraph also states that gas prices are cheaper, which is another incentive.

11 points by wolverine876 3y ago

The extreme reactionaryism is a problem for any policy. What is very dissapointing and disheartening to me is that the policymakers didn't anticipate it and do nothing about it. It is obviously an enormous problem, and they keep their heads in the sand. That is very demoralizing to everyone - even the reactionaries, I would think.

RicoElectrico 3y ago
In the climate in which "oppose the current thing" is a valid platform in many voters' eyes - I don't know how can we achieve that. This isn't endemic to USA either. Polish alt-right party Konfederacja was criticizing government's inaction during the onset of COVID just to turn 180 degrees when restrictions were instated.
- wolverine876 3y ago
  > In the climate in which "oppose the current thing" is a valid platform in many voters' eyes - I don't know how can we achieve that. Problem solving Step 0: Analyze if and how you're helpless Step 1: Start problem solving The trick to problem solving is to skip step 0, which is a complete waste of resources. Moving on to step 1: Note that the reactionaries, world wide, have changed the political climate to something unimaginable and unprecedented in ~7 years in the US, and they have nothing but lies, despair, hatred, violence and disorder to sell. But they skipped step 0 - good for them, because anyone would have told them it's impossible. We have truth, public welfare, freedom, peace, prosperity, integrity, etc. to sell. Most of history has been on our side. We can change the climate too. But first, we need to move on from step 0.

quantified 3y ago

> North Dakota, Mississippi, West Virginia, Oklahoma and Wyoming Except for Mississippi, those are also carbon-production states. 3 of them would inspire range anxiety, how many Superchargers are there in North Dakota or Wyoming? Also, the average car is more of an SUV or pickup on those roads and larger ones too. More Lincoln Aviators outside of those listed blue states.

progne 3y ago
And incomes are lower in red states and EVs are still very much a premium product. There are fewer Lamborghinis per capita in red states too.
- acdha 3y ago
  EVs start at $27k, a bit over half of the _average_ new vehicle price last year, and less than that if you look at the most popular SUV and truck segments. There are pricey ones but that’s the same as the $70+k truck market where the manufacturers have seen huge profits from steering buyers towards the luxury models with the highest margins.

h2odragon 3y ago

Make electric "go cart" grade parts more available. We need electric 4 wheelers. Let Rednecks learn to hack on battery and speed controller systems in a recreational setting, and they'll be much more open to adopting them for situations needing more reliability.

ttymck 3y ago
How do you make them more available and who is in a position to do so?
- h2odragon 3y ago
  Subsidize them like big EVs got? make the "recreational" grade ones eligible for the medicare reimbursement that the mobility scooters get. that'll be a big kick in the market. there's a need for "all terrain" mobility scooters, anyhow.
  - ttymck 3y ago
    And then I can drive it on the road? Who is selling these vehicles?

Always_Anon 3y ago

I wonder how much Elon Musk becoming a right-wing darling will change the perception of EVs in red states. Cybertruck anyone?

the_optimist 3y ago

It’s more frequently inferior to have a shorter-range fuel source when you regularly drive longer distances. Journalists, particularly at Bloomberg, often approach observations with bias and ignorance that actively interferes with thinking and problem solving.

epiccoleman 3y ago
Right, this reads like classic "what's wrong with Kansas" type analysis. There's lots of potential reasons that EVs might not make sense for people in rural environments. Serviceability, range, towing capability, and maybe most importantly just expense. Up until the last year or three Tesla was close to the only option, and even though the new offerings aren't universally as expensive as a Tesla, you're still looking at new car prices, which are substantial. Looks like the cheapest Bolt is 27k, which works out to something like $4-500 monthly payment. Wouldn't fit into my budget, and we make about twice the median income. Not hard to imagine many, many people making a similar financial call
wolverine876 3y ago
Is there specific evidence of bias and ignorance?
- the_optimist 3y ago
  Typically this shows up in inferences about supposedly malign or misguided activities that some other group engages in, without asking inquiring, exploring, studying, or analyzing. Evidence-free implied superiority in judgment. Playing to tropes. In this state, contradictory evidence confirms the bias! Might as well park your brain on the bedside table before heading out.
  - wolverine876 3y ago
    So no evidence?

toomuchtodo 3y ago

Slowly increase gas taxes and let the problem work itself out (assuming you’re still providing EV subsidies so as to not marginalize the poor). Only need to do it until the petroleum supply chain reaches a flow rate where it is no longer economically viable in a geography.

erkt 3y ago
Seems awfully authoritarian. Give people a clean option like hydrogen fuel created by green power. Electric cars require infrastructure that even Blue states like California lack without serious investment. Failing to put yourself in the shoes of a small town that cannot afford to triple each homes KW capacity is a serious gap in perspective and the desire to tax people until they bend to your will may be indicative of why our country is falling apart.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- wolverine876 3y ago
  > Failing to put yourself in the shoes of a small town that cannot afford to triple each homes KW That sounds possible, but is it really a problem? Regardless, the OP seems to say that disinterest in EVs correlates with political alignment and not with local population. > Seems awfully authoritarian. > the desire to tax people until they bend to your will That is quite a description of the ancient, commonplace art of tax incentives and disincentives. The taxes, if implemeted correctly, actually enable people to make informed decisions. It causes the product to reflect the true cost, moving externalities (in this case, the climate change damage) into the price. In other words, it's just people paying to clean up their own mess.
  - erkt 3y ago
    >That sounds possible, but is it really a problem? Yes. Level 2 Charging takes around 30-40amps. How many amps does your home have? Can your utility handle all your neighbors doubling capacity? Can you charge your car and still run your electric furnace in a blizzard? These are valid concerns. We barely have the grid capacity to handle the AC in heat waves, let alone everyone plugging in their cars at 5PM when they get home. >disinterest in EVs correlates with political alignment and not with local population. Political alignment correlates with local population. You can make an educated guess that a rural town leans red, and a city leans blue. A city will also have a more significant tax base and can afford long term infrastructure development. A small town is not in the same position. >the ancient, commonplace art of tax incentives and disincentives. And they have often been called authoritarian when they are excised without adequate representation. >The taxes, if implemented correctly, actually enable people to make informed decisions. My concern is that things aren't being implemented correctly. That the regulations and tax incentives and disincentives make lots of sense for people in one position and not a lot of sense for people in different positions. I think we are ignoring the plight of people in rural communities and failing to recognize that there are immense hurdles for even dense cities. Poor people do not get to buy new cars. They certainly do not get the benefits of subsidized purchase prices. If anything you have poor people subsiding the luxury purchases of wealthy people. In other words its forcing society to collective clean up the messes of people who can already afford to clean up their own messes. New cars become used cars, but if the battery needs to be replaced then you are talking about a cost resembling another car. As someone who believes in climate change, who is under no illusion that we are having massive species loss, why are we all so convinced this means our own extinction? Most of the species that lived on this planet are not captured in the fossil record. The globe was covered in ice 10,000 years ago and life still exists today. If in a hundred years the world is a Jurassic tropical climate, why are we so convinced that this is existential? Species will adapt and survive and evolve. Some won't. C'est la vie. Besides eventually we will figure out that pesticides have had a far greater impact on species loss than a little bit of rough weather.

ZeroGravitas 3y ago

Headline says "Despite Incentives" but subheadline contradicts this, suggesting that red states have lagged on providing incentives. edit: first paragraph also states that gas prices are cheaper, which is another incentive.