4 ms·

It was in many ways. There were of course more enlightened spaces, but the little they had was not very evenly distributed. Btw. nice trivia about cats and pla

by genman 3y ago

It was in many ways. There were of course more enlightened spaces, but the little they had was not very evenly distributed. Btw. nice trivia about cats and plague: Venetians caught cats from the mainland and took them to their islands to catch mice and rats that they knew were responsible for the plague. Therefore it was prohibited to feed the cats but there was a special rain water collector for the cats to have enough drinking water next to each Venetian rain water cistern.

Sharlin 3y ago
> It was in many ways. There were of course more enlightened spaces, but the little they had was not very evenly distributed. Eh. The Middle Ages were hardly darker than the eras preceding them, and the contrast with the Renaissance is much less stark than what the Renaissance people would have you believe. And the era spanned almost a millennium and most of Europe, and it's incredibly simplistic to sum up such a big chunk of spacetime with any single adjective. There's very little similarity between, say, 7th century Scotland, 11th century Spain, and 15th century Venice. If anything, you could call "dark" the centuries after the fall of the Western Roman Empire until the early middle ages. And obviously only from a fairly narrow Western-Europe-centric viewpoint.
- genman 3y ago
  Naturally. I didn't single out medieval era. And I didn't say that it was less or more dark than other historical eras, but if we compare it to what we have right now then you can't claim that it was a very enlightened age. To me the most important change over the time has been acceptance, development and distribution of science and civil rights. I personally see it more like a gradient, not an on/off switch, but the more we go back in time toward medieval era the less we have both of them.
  - darkgenesha 3y ago
    History is a narrative to us like a tv show, so I think judgements based on modern values are incomplete and unfair.
    - genman 3y ago
      Quite contrary. It is completely fair to evaluate the past through the lens of contemporary value system. For example the slavery is today not accepted but during the middle ages it was and was common - therefore by today's standards the life was objectively worse, or most of the people didn't have any education or any rights - again this is in strong contrast to the value system we have today, or because the science was close to non-existent then there rarely was a cure for most of the diseases we can easily cure today, again putting people during the medieval age into worse position.
      - CRConrad 3y ago
        One reason to be careful with that whole "Of course we have the right to pronounce sweeping moral judgement on whole eras of history" thing is that we haven't the slightest idea what coming ages will say of us. And what the next crackpot who claims to be more enlightened than you or I will claim that they will, so they are just a little ahead of the curve -- but obviously right, of course! -- in condemning you or me, personally, for whatever moral position we hold obviously just and right.
- HEmanZ 3y ago
  I thought that was what is meant by the “dark ages”? Basically from the fall of the western Roman Empire until about the carolingian empire. So 400-800 ish. And the name works because we have so much less written evidence about politics in Western Europe during that time, so it is in a sense “dark” to us now. I am not a historian tho
  - Sharlin 3y ago
    Yes, but the problem, as discussed in TFA and this thread, is that it’s really common among non-experts to believe the entire medieval period was somehow "dark" in the sense of being backward, primitive, culturally and technologically regressed.

by genman 3y ago

Sharlin 3y ago

> It was in many ways. There were of course more enlightened spaces, but the little they had was not very evenly distributed. Eh. The Middle Ages were hardly darker than the eras preceding them, and the contrast with the Renaissance is much less stark than what the Renaissance people would have you believe. And the era spanned almost a millennium and most of Europe, and it's incredibly simplistic to sum up such a big chunk of spacetime with any single adjective. There's very little similarity between, say, 7th century Scotland, 11th century Spain, and 15th century Venice. If anything, you could call "dark" the centuries after the fall of the Western Roman Empire until the early middle ages. And obviously only from a fairly narrow Western-Europe-centric viewpoint.

genman 3y ago
Naturally. I didn't single out medieval era. And I didn't say that it was less or more dark than other historical eras, but if we compare it to what we have right now then you can't claim that it was a very enlightened age. To me the most important change over the time has been acceptance, development and distribution of science and civil rights. I personally see it more like a gradient, not an on/off switch, but the more we go back in time toward medieval era the less we have both of them.
- darkgenesha 3y ago
  History is a narrative to us like a tv show, so I think judgements based on modern values are incomplete and unfair.
  - genman 3y ago
    Quite contrary. It is completely fair to evaluate the past through the lens of contemporary value system. For example the slavery is today not accepted but during the middle ages it was and was common - therefore by today's standards the life was objectively worse, or most of the people didn't have any education or any rights - again this is in strong contrast to the value system we have today, or because the science was close to non-existent then there rarely was a cure for most of the diseases we can easily cure today, again putting people during the medieval age into worse position.
    - CRConrad 3y ago
      One reason to be careful with that whole "Of course we have the right to pronounce sweeping moral judgement on whole eras of history" thing is that we haven't the slightest idea what coming ages will say of us. And what the next crackpot who claims to be more enlightened than you or I will claim that they will, so they are just a little ahead of the curve -- but obviously right, of course! -- in condemning you or me, personally, for whatever moral position we hold obviously just and right.
HEmanZ 3y ago
I thought that was what is meant by the “dark ages”? Basically from the fall of the western Roman Empire until about the carolingian empire. So 400-800 ish. And the name works because we have so much less written evidence about politics in Western Europe during that time, so it is in a sense “dark” to us now. I am not a historian tho
- Sharlin 3y ago
  Yes, but the problem, as discussed in TFA and this thread, is that it’s really common among non-experts to believe the entire medieval period was somehow "dark" in the sense of being backward, primitive, culturally and technologically regressed.