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> Whether this will be the solution is unclear; the privacy/creepiness angle is still real with an outwards-facing camera. I don't think you're wrong, but it's

> Whether this will be the solution is unclear; the privacy/creepiness angle is still real with an outwards-facing camera. I don't think you're wrong, but it's funny that we aren't as concerned about everyone walking around with outwards-facing phone cameras.

fennecfoxy 3y ago
And especially since we can now make cameras small enough that you'd never know they were there. Even OVM6948 is commercially available, the size of a "grain of sand". I've always said that privacy is an illusion, the usual example I give is: "You're lying in bed with the curtains drawn, you see a shadow fall across the curtains that looks like a person standing outside. Do you, or do you not have privacy?" If the shadow turns out to be a person peeking through the curtains, then you don't. If the shadow turns out to be primal brain + tree shadow then you do. Schrodinger style. Privacy is probably best described (as it sometimes is) as a "sense" of privacy I guess.
niemal_dev 3y ago
Well said.
yreg 3y ago
Or microphones being present absolutely everywhere. I myself never felt like taping my camera, I feel like if someone pwned my system I would be much more worried about the leaked audio.
mainpassathome 3y ago
tbf those are usually in a pocker or down facing, with filming being an explicit and purposeful action
- ChrisLTD 3y ago
  Plenty of people are walking around, or sitting in a public place with their phone cameras facing out to the world.
  - upwardbound 3y ago
    I think what the parent comment was saying is that when being held in a normal manner, the phone is facing about 45 degrees below the horizon, so it can't see much except people's legs. To film people's faces and such, you'd have to tilt the phone up much higher than you would if you were just writing a text message / email or browsing the web. If you try writing a text on a phone that's angled up to the horizon like that, it's harder to type and harder to read the screen.
    - ChrisLTD 3y ago
      The wide angle lens on my iPhone can capture a pretty good portion of my current room even with my phone angled 45 degrees down.
      - upwardbound 3y ago
        True. I suppose the social conventions around overt vs covert use of smartphone cameras evolved before wide-angle cameras on phones became common, since wide-angle cameras on phones are a pretty new thing.
olyjohn 3y ago
It's funny, I see people cover up the webcam on their laptops all the time, but not their phones. They forget that there's a camera on both sides of the phone.
- TeMPOraL 3y ago
  Webcams in laptops are shitty cameras, and for most people, they're useless anyway (even in post-pandemic era, hardly anyone does conference calls, video or otherwise). Meanwhile, "selfie camera" is like literally the main purpose of the phone for a large chunk of the population.

fennecfoxy 3y ago

And especially since we can now make cameras small enough that you'd never know they were there. Even OVM6948 is commercially available, the size of a "grain of sand". I've always said that privacy is an illusion, the usual example I give is: "You're lying in bed with the curtains drawn, you see a shadow fall across the curtains that looks like a person standing outside. Do you, or do you not have privacy?" If the shadow turns out to be a person peeking through the curtains, then you don't. If the shadow turns out to be primal brain + tree shadow then you do. Schrodinger style. Privacy is probably best described (as it sometimes is) as a "sense" of privacy I guess.

niemal_dev 3y ago

Well said.

yreg 3y ago

Or microphones being present absolutely everywhere. I myself never felt like taping my camera, I feel like if someone pwned my system I would be much more worried about the leaked audio.

mainpassathome 3y ago

tbf those are usually in a pocker or down facing, with filming being an explicit and purposeful action

ChrisLTD 3y ago
Plenty of people are walking around, or sitting in a public place with their phone cameras facing out to the world.
- upwardbound 3y ago
  I think what the parent comment was saying is that when being held in a normal manner, the phone is facing about 45 degrees below the horizon, so it can't see much except people's legs. To film people's faces and such, you'd have to tilt the phone up much higher than you would if you were just writing a text message / email or browsing the web. If you try writing a text on a phone that's angled up to the horizon like that, it's harder to type and harder to read the screen.
  - ChrisLTD 3y ago
    The wide angle lens on my iPhone can capture a pretty good portion of my current room even with my phone angled 45 degrees down.
    - upwardbound 3y ago
      True. I suppose the social conventions around overt vs covert use of smartphone cameras evolved before wide-angle cameras on phones became common, since wide-angle cameras on phones are a pretty new thing.

olyjohn 3y ago

It's funny, I see people cover up the webcam on their laptops all the time, but not their phones. They forget that there's a camera on both sides of the phone.

TeMPOraL 3y ago
Webcams in laptops are shitty cameras, and for most people, they're useless anyway (even in post-pandemic era, hardly anyone does conference calls, video or otherwise). Meanwhile, "selfie camera" is like literally the main purpose of the phone for a large chunk of the population.