5 ms·

Sorry but this is precisely the example of shiny chasing I was thinking of. If you think that a "core issue" that is so important (sarcasm) that apparently you

Sorry but this is precisely the example of shiny chasing I was thinking of. If you think that a "core issue" that is so important (sarcasm) that apparently you don't even know what it is or what usecase it breaks then this is hardly a reason for claiming that "it's ancient and we can do better". "It's ancient" is also not generally something that can be used as a criticism. You could just put yet another patch on top of it. Everyone does it. Practically no one uses the core X API anymore, but you need to implement it if you want _your_ older programs to work. Win32/the windows API is practically the same age, has a million more "core issues", it's a clusterfuck of patches at this point (see Wine), and yet it's going to become the de-facto ABI for Linux games in the near future, if it already isn't, just because at least it tries to be minimally stable. See the multiple HN articles about it....

Alupis 3y ago
Nobody forces anyone to adopt Wayland. The distro maintainers are choosing Wayland. Most of us have outsourced our concerns to the distro maintainers. Wayland didn't happen in a vacuum either. There were/are other options, including remaining on X.org. Wayland isn't even new. It's been around since 2008. This all means "chasing the shiny" is not what's happening.
- AshamedCaptain 3y ago
  As TFA says, people _are being forced_ to adopt Wayland. You yourself are saying that "you outsource your concerns to the distro maintainers, and some are choosing Wayland", which effectively implies that you are being forced to use Wayland. I am also forced to support Wayland if I want to make Linux desktop software. Which means (again) the next application or game I would make is likely going to target Win32 only instead of Linux since it changes way too damn frequently for no reason. The argument "if you complain about Wayland, just improve X11!" goes both ways. The "shiny new thing" chasers are forcing me extra work to maintain my own software, and I am also not paid to do it.
  - Alupis 3y ago
    Nobody is forced. Just like with systemd, there's plenty of distros that still don't use it if that's your thing. Today, they're mostly niche distros for people that just cannot adapt... You can choose not to support Wayland in your app if you want. As market-share grows, your available reach will shrink. That's the same as with anything... There's good reasons Wayland is being adopted in major distros - and it's not "the shiny" like you asserted. > the next application or game I would make is likely going to target Win32 only instead of Linux since it changes way too damn frequently for no reason That's ridiculous. We're talking about one major change in 20 years and you're acting like it changes every few months. Your game won't even exist in 20 years, so it doesn't matter. Nor do you have to even care about what protocol/compositor/lib is being used unless you're doing something strange - the engine will take care of that for you and probably make it a checkbox.
    - AshamedCaptain 3y ago
      > Nobody is forced. [...] You can choose not to support Wayland in your app if you want. As market-share grows, your available reach will shrink. What is the point of claiming "no one is forcing you to choose X" while at the same claiming "but if you choose Y you will face the consequences"? In this case the consequence is a million frustrated users not being able to say, take a screenshot, spamming my inbox like crazy, me abandoning Linux desktop development and everyone getting frustrated at the state of the Linux desktop yet again. > There's good reasons Wayland is being adopted in major distros - and it's not "the shiny" like you asserted. Even in your own messages you are throwing the argument that "at least Wayland is maintained and Xorg isn't", which is basically another way of saying that it has developer interest, and my claim is that it has developer interest because it's new. > Your game won't even exist in 20 years The software I am talking about is actually already older than that. > Nor do you have to even care about what protocol/compositor/lib is being used unless you're doing something strange As mentioned in TFA, there are several extremely common usecases which are broken by these changes. Certainly Wayland is just part of the problem, as it is pervasive to this world.
      - Alupis 3y ago
eptcyka 3y ago
It is not some magpies chasing the next shiny thing that are abandoning Xorg. It is the Xorg developers that are leaving it to rot, because they don't want to maintain it.

Alupis 3y ago

Nobody forces anyone to adopt Wayland. The distro maintainers are choosing Wayland. Most of us have outsourced our concerns to the distro maintainers. Wayland didn't happen in a vacuum either. There were/are other options, including remaining on X.org. Wayland isn't even new. It's been around since 2008. This all means "chasing the shiny" is not what's happening.

AshamedCaptain 3y ago
As TFA says, people _are being forced_ to adopt Wayland. You yourself are saying that "you outsource your concerns to the distro maintainers, and some are choosing Wayland", which effectively implies that you are being forced to use Wayland. I am also forced to support Wayland if I want to make Linux desktop software. Which means (again) the next application or game I would make is likely going to target Win32 only instead of Linux since it changes way too damn frequently for no reason. The argument "if you complain about Wayland, just improve X11!" goes both ways. The "shiny new thing" chasers are forcing me extra work to maintain my own software, and I am also not paid to do it.
- Alupis 3y ago
  Nobody is forced. Just like with systemd, there's plenty of distros that still don't use it if that's your thing. Today, they're mostly niche distros for people that just cannot adapt... You can choose not to support Wayland in your app if you want. As market-share grows, your available reach will shrink. That's the same as with anything... There's good reasons Wayland is being adopted in major distros - and it's not "the shiny" like you asserted. > the next application or game I would make is likely going to target Win32 only instead of Linux since it changes way too damn frequently for no reason That's ridiculous. We're talking about one major change in 20 years and you're acting like it changes every few months. Your game won't even exist in 20 years, so it doesn't matter. Nor do you have to even care about what protocol/compositor/lib is being used unless you're doing something strange - the engine will take care of that for you and probably make it a checkbox.
  - AshamedCaptain 3y ago
    > Nobody is forced. [...] You can choose not to support Wayland in your app if you want. As market-share grows, your available reach will shrink. What is the point of claiming "no one is forcing you to choose X" while at the same claiming "but if you choose Y you will face the consequences"? In this case the consequence is a million frustrated users not being able to say, take a screenshot, spamming my inbox like crazy, me abandoning Linux desktop development and everyone getting frustrated at the state of the Linux desktop yet again. > There's good reasons Wayland is being adopted in major distros - and it's not "the shiny" like you asserted. Even in your own messages you are throwing the argument that "at least Wayland is maintained and Xorg isn't", which is basically another way of saying that it has developer interest, and my claim is that it has developer interest because it's new. > Your game won't even exist in 20 years The software I am talking about is actually already older than that. > Nor do you have to even care about what protocol/compositor/lib is being used unless you're doing something strange As mentioned in TFA, there are several extremely common usecases which are broken by these changes. Certainly Wayland is just part of the problem, as it is pervasive to this world.
    - Alupis 3y ago

eptcyka 3y ago

It is not some magpies chasing the next shiny thing that are abandoning Xorg. It is the Xorg developers that are leaving it to rot, because they don't want to maintain it.