3 ms·

This program requires a short apprenticeship and the submission of a body of work to the bar in lieu of the exam. This sounds reasonable to me (though the 675

This program requires a short apprenticeship and the submission of a body of work to the bar in lieu of the exam. This sounds reasonable to me (though the 675 hours sounds low - I would have expected 1 year of experience or more). Virginia is one of two(?) states that allow an apprenticeship ("reading the law") to replace law school. But the bar exam is still required. And the pass rate here is much lower than law school graduates.

Arainach 3y ago
Talking to friends who have taken the bar exam, it excels at testing, among other things, attention to detail - a scenario that "is clearly X" at first read is actually nuanced and the answer is completely different. I don't personally believe that any single other skill is more important to being an effective lawyer, and do not believe that a short apprenticeship or submission of "body of work" is any sort of substitute. Will there be some people who can be effective lawyers without passing the bar? Probably - in the sense that there are some people who can be effective software engineers coming out of a coding bootcamp. That doesn't mean that 95% aren't incompetent people looking to make a quick buck.
- anon373839 3y ago
  > I don't personally believe that any single other skill is more important to being an effective lawyer I’ll posit one more: a holistic intuition of how the law “works”. The law is unfathomably large. As a lawyer, you have to make numerous decisions that involve novel circumstances or that you simply don’t have the opportunity to research beforehand. So you need to base a surprising number of decisions on instinct, experience, or derivation from first principles.
xboxnolifes 3y ago
Is the pass rate being low, bad? Couldn't it just imply more people attempt it?
- alistairSH 3y ago
  The pass rate for law readers (apprentices) is lower than those who completed law school (20% pass rate vs 80%). The law reader program requires an undergraduate degree and 3 years of apprenticeship under a supervising attorney, so it doesn't save time vs law school. It only saves money. A small number of people undertake and complete the law reader program in VA. Likely because it's not viewed as a good value - if you complete law school, but fail the bar, at least you still have a post-graduate degree (that's generally viewed favorably in general). But, IANAL or expert in this program, just interesting the different options to get into a law practice.
  - kelipso 3y ago
    More than a good chance the law readers are doing it alongside a full or part time job, while law school students are fully invested in terms of time and lots of money.
    - alistairSH 3y ago
      That's possible. From the program rules... "Each calendar year shall consist of at least 40 weeks, with a minimum of 25 hours of study each week..."
  - kevinmchugh 3y ago
    > if you complete law school, but fail the bar, at least you still have a post-graduate degree (that's generally viewed favorably in general). For folks who don't know, lawyers really like JDs, to the point that if you want to be a recruiter for lawyers, you probably need a JD. If you want to be a career counselor at a law school, you probably need a JD. They can be this choosy because there's enough people with a JD who don't want to be a lawyer or can't hack it as one.
lucb1e 3y ago
> 675 hours sounds low - I would have expected 1 year of experience Doing the unit conversion for everyone else: that's 17 versus 48 workweeks, assuming 40 hours/week in both cases.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
5555624 3y ago
Four states allow you to take the bar exam without attending law school: California, Vermont, Virginia, Washington. The various requirements differ. California requires two years of college, Virginia requires a bachelor's degree. Vermont takes four years, California takes five years.

Arainach 3y ago

Talking to friends who have taken the bar exam, it excels at testing, among other things, attention to detail - a scenario that "is clearly X" at first read is actually nuanced and the answer is completely different. I don't personally believe that any single other skill is more important to being an effective lawyer, and do not believe that a short apprenticeship or submission of "body of work" is any sort of substitute. Will there be some people who can be effective lawyers without passing the bar? Probably - in the sense that there are some people who can be effective software engineers coming out of a coding bootcamp. That doesn't mean that 95% aren't incompetent people looking to make a quick buck.

anon373839 3y ago
> I don't personally believe that any single other skill is more important to being an effective lawyer I’ll posit one more: a holistic intuition of how the law “works”. The law is unfathomably large. As a lawyer, you have to make numerous decisions that involve novel circumstances or that you simply don’t have the opportunity to research beforehand. So you need to base a surprising number of decisions on instinct, experience, or derivation from first principles.

xboxnolifes 3y ago

Is the pass rate being low, bad? Couldn't it just imply more people attempt it?

alistairSH 3y ago
The pass rate for law readers (apprentices) is lower than those who completed law school (20% pass rate vs 80%). The law reader program requires an undergraduate degree and 3 years of apprenticeship under a supervising attorney, so it doesn't save time vs law school. It only saves money. A small number of people undertake and complete the law reader program in VA. Likely because it's not viewed as a good value - if you complete law school, but fail the bar, at least you still have a post-graduate degree (that's generally viewed favorably in general). But, IANAL or expert in this program, just interesting the different options to get into a law practice.
- kelipso 3y ago
  More than a good chance the law readers are doing it alongside a full or part time job, while law school students are fully invested in terms of time and lots of money.
  - alistairSH 3y ago
    That's possible. From the program rules... "Each calendar year shall consist of at least 40 weeks, with a minimum of 25 hours of study each week..."
- kevinmchugh 3y ago
  > if you complete law school, but fail the bar, at least you still have a post-graduate degree (that's generally viewed favorably in general). For folks who don't know, lawyers really like JDs, to the point that if you want to be a recruiter for lawyers, you probably need a JD. If you want to be a career counselor at a law school, you probably need a JD. They can be this choosy because there's enough people with a JD who don't want to be a lawyer or can't hack it as one.

lucb1e 3y ago

> 675 hours sounds low - I would have expected 1 year of experience Doing the unit conversion for everyone else: that's 17 versus 48 workweeks, assuming 40 hours/week in both cases.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

5555624 3y ago

Four states allow you to take the bar exam without attending law school: California, Vermont, Virginia, Washington. The various requirements differ. California requires two years of college, Virginia requires a bachelor's degree. Vermont takes four years, California takes five years.