5 ms·

TBH I don't buy that argument, we are talking about PC games that have handled scaling for a very long time. This is standard if you are making PC games. The S

TBH I don't buy that argument, we are talking about PC games that have handled scaling for a very long time. This is standard if you are making PC games. The Steam Deck really isn't a console in any traditional sense of the word. With there now being multiple devices like this out there, I don't think that argument works.

titaniumtown 3y ago
Valve wants the Steam Deck to fit in the Console space and be a easy gateway for less-techy people to play PC games.
- nerdjon 3y ago
  But I have yet to see any indication from a development standpoint that it is. PC games already automatically figure out what specs to use (or at least many do) so I am still struggling with this argument. The argument completely falls apart when you have devices like the Asus Rog Ally or the Legion GO. It also falls apart when, unless I am mistaken, SteamOS is open for anyone to use on other devices.
  - enragedcacti 3y ago
    A single performance target means devs can fairly easily make tweaks and fixes to get "Verified Compatible" with Steam Deck which means more games work on ALL steam decks and its easier for casual consumers to just pick it up, buy some games, and have a good experience without knowing anything about PC gaming. The Ally and the Legion GO (and other power constrained devices/devices with APUs) will benefit from some devs' performance and power optimizations for steam deck, and SteamOS based devices will benefit from fixes that work around issues with proton, both of which would be less likely to be addressed if there weren't an entire market of consumers you can access by getting that "Verified" badge.
    - nerdjon 3y ago
      > The Ally and the Legion GO (and other power constrained devices/devices with APUs) will benefit from some devs' performance and power optimizations for steam deck, and SteamOS based devices will benefit from fixes that work around issues with proton, both of which would be less likely to be addressed if there weren't an entire market of consumers you can access by getting that "Verified" badge IF that is the case, then the argument for why they would not increase the performance is not valid. They could have kept the same resolution but made it more powerful. You can't say other devices will benefit and still make the argument that the steam deck had to stay at the same performance level. It's one or the other. It's perfectly fine that Valve didn't want to upgrade it but I just don't buy the argument.
      - enragedcacti 3y ago
        It's not one or the other because the concern isn't for the owners of the new Deck, its for the owners of the old one. Any meaningful increase in power will create a scenario where the new deck can play games that the old one cannot which would be confusing for consumers and would weaken developer incentives to create a good experience on the older deck. When you factor in that the niche market of slightly more powerful $600+ handhelds is already served by 4+ different players I just don't see why Valve would need to jump into it at this point. The marginal benefit is not worth the risk of fracturing the deck community and burning early adopters. Also I should have made it more clear, but only some patches targeting the steam deck will trickle up to higher performance devices. Some patches will be things like "low shadows look like crap but medium shadows are just barely too much for the deck, lets lower medium a bit so that it can run well". I only mention that some patches will help other mobile devices because in my view its a win-win for the entire market that Valve is committed to providing a common denominator.
delecti 3y ago
On the contrary, I'd say that the Steam Deck has a lot in common with consoles, especially as modern consoles (PS5 and XSX) converge with PCs. The Steam Deck comes with a store integrated into the frontend, a verification process, and standardized controls and performance targets. It's basically a "pre-jailbroken" console. At the same time, the XBox Series S is showing a big reason why Valve might want to keep a single performance target for a longer than the normal constantly evolving hardware in PCs, and both it and the PS5 digital have removed any sort of physical distribution aspect to the definition of consoles.
- charcircuit 3y ago
  >especially as modern consoles (PS5 and XSX) converge with PCs. What makes you think this is true?
  - delecti 3y ago
    I suppose I should clarify that I don't think they're likely to fully converge, at least not in the next decade (through the PS6 and whatever nonsense Microsoft calls their next iteration). But it's increasingly similar hardware inside, consoles are increasingly supporting more general purpose computing (media apps, social networking features, web browsing, game/app stores), the experience is more customizable, patching has made it much less "the game is the game", and the stupid simple reliability has gotten much less stupid simple. I'd say that the distance between PCs and consoles has been gradually shrinking since probably the release of the PS3/360, mostly due to consoles moving closer to PCs, but the Steam Deck is a big jump towards a PC being console-y.
    - charcircuit 3y ago
      So you would say that phones are becoming PCs too? Your definition is not what most people think when they hear the word PC.
      - delecti 3y ago
        They absolutely are in lots of ways. Phones are too small to be convenient PCs, but there's not much left they can't do these days. If you look at the spectrum from phones, to phone-OS tablets (ipads or android tablets), to PC-OS tablets, to laptops, it's really not a solid line you can draw where things are dramatically different. The main difference is that the UX isn't designed to be good at being a PC.
Arainach 3y ago
Sure, but changing the resolution and changing the scaling means changing the performance metrics. If one device is 1080p and one is 2160p, then even if both "render" at 1080 and one scales up to 2160 that is a change in performance. They don't want developers to have to test on multiple devices to see if it gets laggy on the one with the higher-res screen.

titaniumtown 3y ago

Valve wants the Steam Deck to fit in the Console space and be a easy gateway for less-techy people to play PC games.

nerdjon 3y ago
But I have yet to see any indication from a development standpoint that it is. PC games already automatically figure out what specs to use (or at least many do) so I am still struggling with this argument. The argument completely falls apart when you have devices like the Asus Rog Ally or the Legion GO. It also falls apart when, unless I am mistaken, SteamOS is open for anyone to use on other devices.
- enragedcacti 3y ago
  A single performance target means devs can fairly easily make tweaks and fixes to get "Verified Compatible" with Steam Deck which means more games work on ALL steam decks and its easier for casual consumers to just pick it up, buy some games, and have a good experience without knowing anything about PC gaming. The Ally and the Legion GO (and other power constrained devices/devices with APUs) will benefit from some devs' performance and power optimizations for steam deck, and SteamOS based devices will benefit from fixes that work around issues with proton, both of which would be less likely to be addressed if there weren't an entire market of consumers you can access by getting that "Verified" badge.
  - nerdjon 3y ago
    > The Ally and the Legion GO (and other power constrained devices/devices with APUs) will benefit from some devs' performance and power optimizations for steam deck, and SteamOS based devices will benefit from fixes that work around issues with proton, both of which would be less likely to be addressed if there weren't an entire market of consumers you can access by getting that "Verified" badge IF that is the case, then the argument for why they would not increase the performance is not valid. They could have kept the same resolution but made it more powerful. You can't say other devices will benefit and still make the argument that the steam deck had to stay at the same performance level. It's one or the other. It's perfectly fine that Valve didn't want to upgrade it but I just don't buy the argument.
    - enragedcacti 3y ago
      It's not one or the other because the concern isn't for the owners of the new Deck, its for the owners of the old one. Any meaningful increase in power will create a scenario where the new deck can play games that the old one cannot which would be confusing for consumers and would weaken developer incentives to create a good experience on the older deck. When you factor in that the niche market of slightly more powerful $600+ handhelds is already served by 4+ different players I just don't see why Valve would need to jump into it at this point. The marginal benefit is not worth the risk of fracturing the deck community and burning early adopters. Also I should have made it more clear, but only some patches targeting the steam deck will trickle up to higher performance devices. Some patches will be things like "low shadows look like crap but medium shadows are just barely too much for the deck, lets lower medium a bit so that it can run well". I only mention that some patches will help other mobile devices because in my view its a win-win for the entire market that Valve is committed to providing a common denominator.

delecti 3y ago

On the contrary, I'd say that the Steam Deck has a lot in common with consoles, especially as modern consoles (PS5 and XSX) converge with PCs. The Steam Deck comes with a store integrated into the frontend, a verification process, and standardized controls and performance targets. It's basically a "pre-jailbroken" console. At the same time, the XBox Series S is showing a big reason why Valve might want to keep a single performance target for a longer than the normal constantly evolving hardware in PCs, and both it and the PS5 digital have removed any sort of physical distribution aspect to the definition of consoles.

charcircuit 3y ago
>especially as modern consoles (PS5 and XSX) converge with PCs. What makes you think this is true?
- delecti 3y ago
  I suppose I should clarify that I don't think they're likely to fully converge, at least not in the next decade (through the PS6 and whatever nonsense Microsoft calls their next iteration). But it's increasingly similar hardware inside, consoles are increasingly supporting more general purpose computing (media apps, social networking features, web browsing, game/app stores), the experience is more customizable, patching has made it much less "the game is the game", and the stupid simple reliability has gotten much less stupid simple. I'd say that the distance between PCs and consoles has been gradually shrinking since probably the release of the PS3/360, mostly due to consoles moving closer to PCs, but the Steam Deck is a big jump towards a PC being console-y.
  - charcircuit 3y ago
    So you would say that phones are becoming PCs too? Your definition is not what most people think when they hear the word PC.
    - delecti 3y ago
      They absolutely are in lots of ways. Phones are too small to be convenient PCs, but there's not much left they can't do these days. If you look at the spectrum from phones, to phone-OS tablets (ipads or android tablets), to PC-OS tablets, to laptops, it's really not a solid line you can draw where things are dramatically different. The main difference is that the UX isn't designed to be good at being a PC.

Arainach 3y ago

Sure, but changing the resolution and changing the scaling means changing the performance metrics. If one device is 1080p and one is 2160p, then even if both "render" at 1080 and one scales up to 2160 that is a change in performance. They don't want developers to have to test on multiple devices to see if it gets laggy on the one with the higher-res screen.