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No bar exam required to practice law in Oregon starting next year
- amedia 3y agoThis really lowers the bar
- rokkitmensch 3y agoMore like annihilating it!
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- rayiner 3y agoThis is backward. They should eliminate the law school requirement and let people be lawyers with just the bar exam.
- alistairSH 3y agoThis program requires a short apprenticeship and the submission of a body of work to the bar in lieu of the exam. This sounds reasonable to me (though the 675 hours sounds low - I would have expected 1 year of experience or more). Virginia is one of two(?) states that allow an apprenticeship ("reading the law") to replace law school. But the bar exam is still required. And the pass rate here is much lower than law school graduates.
- Arainach 3y agoTalking to friends who have taken the bar exam, it excels at testing, among other things, attention to detail - a scenario that "is clearly X" at first read is actually nuanced and the answer is completely different. I don't personally believe that any single other skill is more important to being an effective lawyer, and do not believe that a short apprenticeship or submission of "body of work" is any sort of substitute. Will there be some people who can be effective lawyers without passing the bar? Probably - in the sense that there are some people who can be effective software engineers coming out of a coding bootcamp. That doesn't mean that 95% aren't incompetent people looking to make a quick buck.
- anon373839 3y ago> I don't personally believe that any single other skill is more important to being an effective lawyer I’ll posit one more: a holistic intuition of how the law “works”. The law is unfathomably large. As a lawyer, you have to make numerous decisions that involve novel circumstances or that you simply don’t have the opportunity to research beforehand. So you need to base a surprising number of decisions on instinct, experience, or derivation from first principles.
- xboxnolifes 3y agoIs the pass rate being low, bad? Couldn't it just imply more people attempt it?
- alistairSH 3y agoThe pass rate for law readers (apprentices) is lower than those who completed law school (20% pass rate vs 80%). The law reader program requires an undergraduate degree and 3 years of apprenticeship under a supervising attorney, so it doesn't save time vs law school. It only saves money. A small number of people undertake and complete the law reader program in VA. Likely because it's not viewed as a good value - if you complete law school, but fail the bar, at least you still have a post-graduate degree (that's generally viewed favorably in general). But, IANAL or expert in this program, just interesting the different options to get into a law practice.
- kelipso 3y agoMore than a good chance the law readers are doing it alongside a full or part time job, while law school students are fully invested in terms of time and lots of money.
- alistairSH 3y agoThat's possible. From the program rules... "Each calendar year shall consist of at least 40 weeks, with a minimum of 25 hours of study each week..."
- kevinmchugh 3y ago> if you complete law school, but fail the bar, at least you still have a post-graduate degree (that's generally viewed favorably in general). For folks who don't know, lawyers really like JDs, to the point that if you want to be a recruiter for lawyers, you probably need a JD. If you want to be a career counselor at a law school, you probably need a JD. They can be this choosy because there's enough people with a JD who don't want to be a lawyer or can't hack it as one.
- lucb1e 3y ago> 675 hours sounds low - I would have expected 1 year of experience Doing the unit conversion for everyone else: that's 17 versus 48 workweeks, assuming 40 hours/week in both cases.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- 5555624 3y agoFour states allow you to take the bar exam without attending law school: California, Vermont, Virginia, Washington. The various requirements differ. California requires two years of college, Virginia requires a bachelor's degree. Vermont takes four years, California takes five years.
- RcouF1uZ4gsC 3y agoAgreed. Lincoln was one of the famous lawyers that never attended law school: https://www.politico.com/story/2016/11/lincoln-admitted-to-practice-law-dec-3-1839-232022 https://www.politico.com/story/2016/11/lincoln-admitted-to-p...
- mustache_kimono 3y agoEvery lawyer attending law school is a relatively new phenomenon although law schools have been around in the US since 1817. Previously, many might apprentice, then take a bar exam. Justice Robert Jackson, one of our greatest SCOTUS justices and a personal favorite, was the last SCOTUS justice not to attend the standard 3 years of law school. However IMHO there are plenty of attorneys, perhaps too many, and de-professionalizing the practice of law, at this moment in time, will not be a good thing for judges, other attorneys, and the administration of justice. But read carefully what Oregon is doing: > After law school, candidates will spend 675 hours working under the supervision of an experienced attorney and create a portfolio of legal work that bar officials will grade as an alternative to the traditional bar exam. I think this policy gets the problem backwards. Kids are actually spending too much time and money in law school. The preparation and sitting for a grueling 2-3 day exam more closely approximates one aspect of the profession, than yet another year of law school. I'd be more pleased if we re-adopted the apprenticeship model, as an alternative to some law school, and reduced the traditional law school curriculum to 2 years.
- jcranmer 3y agoFrom what I understand, the law school requirement is more useful than the bar exam. To use a CS analogy, the bar exam would involve questions like "write a Sieve of Eratosthenes using PDP-11 assembler," and you're expected to have the PDP-11 assembly manual fully memorized to be able to take it.
- catlover76 3y ago[dead]
- biomcgary 3y agoOne of my frustrations with professional licensing (beyond being intentionally protectionist) is that it requires X number of hours in a seat, not really demonstrated competence. This slows down market response to increasing demand (I can't find an electrician in my area). A very involved exam stretching over multiple days would be much faster and more likely to achieve the stated purpose of licensing competent people.
- plagiarist 3y agoI would love to study on my own, take an exam, and be qualified to do electrical work on my own house. The only thing stopping me from attempting is the hour requirement. I kinda see the point, practice is important. But I'm not about to transition careers and work as an apprentice at this stage in life.
- dpe82 3y agoIn many US states, you can already do electrical work on your own home without a professional certificate as long as it's done to code and inspected.
- jimmaswell 3y agoOr if nobody notices.
- earleybird 3y agoOr as a sibling of mine did recently. Electrician didn't have time to do the work so sibling did the work and electrician reviewed on completion (when he was back from vacation) for a nominal fee. Electrician noted the work was meticulous, in fact better than any of his assistants. Several things to note, siblings meticulous work also applies to day job as developer, it probably took longer than the electricians assistants would take and finally you could say the electrician 'approved and merged the PR'.
- kibwen 3y agoCertain jurisdictions do allow you to do electrical work without a license if you're the property owner.
- miobrien 3y agoNo. The bar exam is an outdated, gatekeeping, hazing mechanism that requires rote memorization and application of blackletter law and is altogether unrelated to the practice of law. However, it wouldn't hurt to shorten law school from three to two years. The third year is a waste.
- xwdv 3y agoNo, that’s exactly what they want to prevent: pissants who game the exam and then go on to practice law. If you’ve done law school, that should be good enough. No need to pin everything on one exam.
- killjoywashere 3y agoAny professional program instills way more than just knowledge to pass a test. The fact that you survived long enough to pass the test is often a big part of the test's function. The graded practice thing is actually even more intimidating. Not only do you have to do well, you have to do well live in front of people, and you have to have had the requisite experience in those hours of practice to get an adequate portfolio together. This portfolio development component can be brutally harder than all the tests combined.
- ibejoeb 3y agoIf you've practiced for a decade in one state, and then you moved to another state without reciprocity (many permutations) and want to work, suddenly you have to sit again. That's a very different headspace. This "supervised work" is a good option in this scenario.
- kstrauser 3y agoThat's the same for doctors. My wife and I moved to a state without reciprocity. One of the local requirements was to have passed the board qualification exams -- the ones you take as a med school senior as part of applying to residencies -- within the last 10 years. Doesn't matter if you've been practicing for 25 years, or even teaching in a med school: you're taking the test again. My wife's the genius of our family and passed it the first time through. I'm glad I work in an industry where I don't have to ever take and pass my college exams again.
- throwitaway222 3y agoThen test EVERYTHING one should know
- killjoywashere 3y agoHow do you propose testing real world ethics in a controlled environment?
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- efitz 3y agoThey should eliminate the license altogether and get out of the business of deciding who can practice law. Professional licensing is generally a scam that allows people in a trade to control competition among other things. Under color of government it’s given the veneer of “protecting the public” but in reality it’s protectionist and also used to punish people who don’t think or act like the licensing organization prefers.
- itslennysfault 3y agoThis exists in some states... sorta. I have a friend in WA that has been a paralegal for over a decade who is currently going through the process. In most states you are not allowed to take the bar unless you have a law degree, but in WA, CA, I'm sure others, you can take the bar after studying under a lawyer for X hours (not sure the number, but its a lot).
- maxioatic 3y agoInstead... "After law school, candidates will spend 675 hours working under the supervision of an experienced attorney and create a portfolio of legal work that bar officials will grade as an alternative to the traditional bar exam." You can still take the bar exam if you want.
- ugh123 3y agoThis has nepotism and pay-to-play written all over it
- biggieshellz 3y agoHow? If anything, this gives a path forward for people who can't afford to take months away from work to study for the bar exam or pay Barbri for a prep course. Compare it to professional pilots, who can work towards the 1500 hours they need for their ATP license while getting paid to do flight instructing, towing banners, flying charters or cargo, and so forth.
- ugh123 3y agoSure, some will undoubtedly have a smoother path based on their circumstances. But combining people who want to profit with more people who want to "do lawyer things" is a bad recipe.
- voisin 3y agoHow do they grade work that is subject to privilege?
- neilv 3y agoI wonder how judges will feel about that, and whether new lawyers of that batch will treated the same as earlier batches of new lawyers were.
- porkbeer 3y agoIt depends almost wholly on the behavior and demonstrated skill and decorum of the lawyers from that batch.
- cxr 3y agoIn some jurisdictions, the requirements to be a judge are lower than the requirements to be a lawyer. (Separately: in many jurisdictions, judges are elected officials.)
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- hospitalJail 3y agoI'd be much more likely to be a patent lawyer if I didn't need to follow some rigid time schedule of courses/in-person events. I can do logic. I have done well in technical fields so far. I don't see why law is any different, I've had my run-ins with various contracts already. If I could study, take a test, and participate, it would increase the supply, decreasing cost. Oh yeah, politics, a special interest group increased barrier to entry.
- cft 3y agoSo now we will have prosecutors and judges who didn't pass the bar exam?
- ibejoeb 3y agoI'll take the worst prosecutor I can get.
- voisin 3y agoOk, but I bet you'd want the best prosecutor you can get to go after the guy that commits a crime against you or your family.
- ibejoeb 3y agoThat really only matters when the line prosecutors are not hamstrung by DA's agenda, and a lot of Oregon is currently experiencing this. The other side of the coin is that the public defenders might get worse.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- catlover76 3y agoGood. It's a useless and idiotic exam.
- s0kr8s 3y agoA lot of recent "ditch the exam" efforts across a wide variety of professions seem to be centered around post-2020 diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) initiatives (evidence: https://www.opb.org/article/2022/01/17/oregon-advances-alternative-routes-to-becoming-a-licensed-lawyer/ https://www.opb.org/article/2022/01/17/oregon-advances-alter...). This is not always stated explicitly, but will turn up in board minutes if you have access to them. Many professional boards have added a DEI committee or incorporated language into their mission statement in recent years as well (Oregon bar statement: https://www.osbar.org/diversity/programs.html https://www.osbar.org/diversity/programs.html). I'm never clear whether the hypothesis is "more DEI = more efficacy && competency," or whether the hypothesis is "benefits of (DEI) > benefits of (efficacy && competency)." The former hypothesis at least seems more testable, but I'm not sure whether anyone is trying very hard (meta-analysis: https://academic.oup.com/tbm/advance-article/doi/10.1093/tbm/ibad061/7324745 https://academic.oup.com/tbm/advance-article/doi/10.1093/tbm...).
- rayiner 3y agoIt’s based on the absurd idea that multiple choice tests are racist and so what you need is subjective human grading.
- vineyardmike 3y agoNot sure if the ditch the exam here is related to that, since there’s a lot of pre-existing discourse around exam practices anyways, but > I'm never clear whether the hypothesis is … or … It’s possibly both. I’ve seen a lot of arguments (poorly cited usually) to the affect of * diverse organizations tend to perform better. The general claim is that providing psychological safety enables people to work better. And diverse groups of people have more different experiences, and can contribute increasingly different ideas and perspectives. * DEI initiatives are beneficial people and society at large. This claim is obvious. So it can be true that the benefits of these initiatives are important AND they lead to better performing organizations.
- narrator 3y agoPeople who are granted access to opportunities based on DEI and not on merit will be forever indebted to the DEI power structure and will aid them in their long march through the institutions by loyally doing whatever it takes to increase and ensure their political power. They claim that their is a conspiracy against DEI and they are just rebalancing the scale and this is why there are different scores on standardized tests, etc. They say the only way for you to get justice is to give political power to the DEI hierarchy and ignore their crimes and corruption and prosecute to the maximum extent those who want to do things based on merit.
- gehwartzen 3y agoThis is kind of a more general question but in terms of finding a good lawyer to do X what is the best filtering mechanism? I’m one of those people that doesn’t have a “I’ll have my lawyer look at that” kind of relationship with anyone as I e never needed a lawyer. How would I best find a lawyer In my city if I have something come up and need one quickly? Is there a ratings system or reviews system? From the outside it’s like a big gray box with cost and word of mouth recommendations being the only sliders.
- molsongolden 3y agoThis is a forever problem. It’s difficult to judge the competency or skill of a professional without also being a professional in the same space. Word of mouth is the usual solution. Another approach is to pick a few lawyers (read things they’ve written, online reviews, etc.) then do intro calls and pick the one who clicks best. Do a couple of low stakes projects with them to feel out their competency. I’ll note that it can be worthwhile to match the professional to the task. No reason to pay top dollar to a specialist if all you need is some common boilerplate that any lawyer can do. You’ll also need to line up separate commercial and criminal lawyers.
- CSMastermind 3y agohttps://www.martindale.com/ https://www.martindale.com/ Can be a good starting point depending on what you're looking to do. Ultimately peer recommendations are the best - if you know a lawyer ask them to recommend someone good or if you know an accountant ask them to recommend a good lawyer, etc.
- voisin 3y agoAnd in Canada not only is there a requirement for schooling (3 years on top of - in nearly all cases - a 4 or 5 year undergraduate degree), and a bar exam, but also a year of articling at a firm as cheap labour. I am thankful to have a law degree but far more thankful to have never practiced.
- Eumenes 3y agoOregon is on a roll .. https://www.npr.org/2019/07/01/737798440/oregon-legislature-votes-to-essentially-ban-single-family-zoning https://www.npr.org/2019/07/01/737798440/oregon-legislature-... https://www.oregonlive.com/education/2023/10/oregon-again-says-students-dont-need-to-prove-mastery-of-reading-writing-or-math-to-graduate-citing-harm-to-students-of-color.html https://www.oregonlive.com/education/2023/10/oregon-again-sa...
- YossarianFrPrez 3y agoIt's not that they've removed the bar exam and changed nothing else. From TFA: >The Oregon Supreme Court on Tuesday approved an alternative licensing program that bar exam reformers hope will spur further innovation in other states. After law school, candidates will spend 675 hours working under the supervision of an experienced attorney and create a portfolio of legal work that bar officials will grade as an alternative to the traditional bar exam. >In addition to completing 675 hours of paid legal work, participants in Oregon’s new program must submit at least eight examples of legal writing, take the lead in at least two initial client interviews or client counseling sessions, and head up two negotiations, among other requirements. The applicants' portfolios would then be graded by Oregon bar examiners, and those with qualifying scores would be sworn into the state bar. Also relevant: > Wisconsin allows graduates of the state's two law schools to become licensed without passing the bar in what is known as a diploma privilege, and New Hampshire allows a small cohort of law students who complete a specialized curriculum to bypass the bar.
- dadjoker 3y agoHigh schoolers in Oregon won’t need to demonstrate basic competency in reading, writing or math in order to graduate for at least five more years because, according to education officials, such requirements are unnecessary and disproportionately harm students of color.... So take this for what it's worth
- dadjoker 3y agoOregon has also decided that high schoolers won’t need to demonstrate basic competency in reading, writing or math in order to graduate for at least five more years because "equity" or something. So take this for what it's worth...
- pie_flavor 3y agoA lot of comments here seem to be speculating about DEI. I'm the last person who would ever defend a DEI push, but the requirements really don't seem to support this narrative. > Candidates will spend 675 hours working under the supervision of an experienced attorney [...] submit at least eight examples of legal writing, take the lead in at least two initial client interviews or client counseling sessions, and head up two negotiations > a Supervising Attorney [...] is an active member of the Oregon State Bar [...] has no record of public discipline in any jurisdiction to which they are or have been members [...] is employed by the same Employer as the Provisional Licensee This looks, instead, like the standard apprenticeship model, and while I'd be slightly wary of the journeyman->master requirements, the apprentice->journeyman requirements seem pretty exhaustive and likely to produce results as good as or better than the bar exam. It takes less than 675 hours to study to pass the bar, but you were going to spend that amount of time informally apprenticed and do this much work anyway. Meanwhile, the bar exam has got its problems, that make replacing it with a formal apprenticeship seem like a great idea. To quote a lawyer I know: "The bar exam does not teach useful or meaningful law. You don't learn <state> law on the <state> bar exam. You are tested about imaginary "common" law concepts that are often specifically replaced by statutes in a given state. If I tried to use the bar exam definition of burglary in <state>, that would be malpractice. In fact no jurisdiction uses the common law definition of burglary." Law is extremely state-by-state, and a theory-based test on an imaginary legal code, while productive, is likely to be a lot less productive than graded real legal work on the real legal code.
- simonsarris 3y agoThe bar exam using an abstract system (that may not really exist in reality) vs specific state law systems seems just fine, as long as the people smart enough to pass recognize that. I suspect they are. But the bar also tests quite a bit about the concept of liability, the essentials of contract, constitutional law, intent, and I'm sure a bunch of other topics. Are those of so little value that it's worth ditching? Is 1/3rd of a working year (675 hours) enough to cover all those topics? What if the attorney is an estate planner? Or a litigator? It would seem this risks making the minimum experience of a given lawyer potentially more lopsided.
- TheSwordsman 3y agoIn the timeless words of Jay-Z: I didn't pass the bar, but I know a little bit. Enough that you won't illegally search my shit.
- AnetteJourdan 3y ago[dead]