8 ms·

I find it odd how many people keep saying it's that simple to push PHP code to a box and get it working. Sure, if you've got crazy simple requirements it's gen

I find it odd how many people keep saying it's that simple to push PHP code to a box and get it working. Sure, if you've got crazy simple requirements it's generally a cinch. Once you do anything remotely non-trivial (want to read from a file? use some third party library, handle errors in a consistent manner) then you start hitting into issues with file permissions, PHP version differences, modules not compiled in by default, etc etc. I've been dealing with PHP for a long time, and getting a local dev setup to match the remote version (or getting code to work on both environments) is just a pain to do. Also, PHP is not helpful in local development. I think there's a built-in runserver in the newest versions, but for all of history, to develop PHP you had to install (and set up) apache and all your required modules locally. With python and Django, I use virtualenv+pip to get a consistent environment, manage.py runserver to test locally. I can pretty much start developing everywhere (my desktop, my VPS, my laptop, that same laptop after I reformat it and install some new distro to test) with 3 commands.

drumdance 15y ago
I think you're mistaken to assume the beginner even has such a thing as a local development environment. When first learning PHP I wrote all my code on a $10/month web hosts, saving directly to the FTP server. Only later did I install a local dev (now made very easy with MAMP), learn about version control, PEAR etc.
- mechanical_fish 15y ago
  Yes, this is why PHP is easy for beginners. The standard practice is to edit directly on the server. It's a hard habit for a lot of PHP devs to break. It's very straightforward and direct: Edit a file, hit reload, see the result live. Something like, e.g., Heroku is awesome, yes, but not only do you need to learn how to debug a thing which you can't really touch in production, not only do you have to master the distinction between "the file I just edited here" and "the file on the remote machine"… but you have to use Git for that. I love Git, but years of watching PHP devs try to figure out Git have taught me just how intuitive it isn't.
ErrantX 15y ago
Sure, if you've got crazy simple requirements it's generally a cinch. Once you do anything remotely non-trivial (want to read from a file? use some third party library, handle errors in a consistent manner) then you start hitting into issues with file permissions, PHP version differences, modules not compiled in by default, etc etc. Although PHP suffers from this, I'm not sure it is alone. I suffer a lot of pain setting up Ruby environments (I don't think I've ever managed it the same way twice) and getting everything to play nice. Even Python, a language I am about as familiar with as PHP, has it's annoyances on this front. I suspect the difference is familiarity; I can deploy a working PHP environment in my sleep, because I've done it so many times. The other day I had to set up Java/Tomcat - literally the worst experience of my life... Also, PHP is not helpful in local development. I think there's a built-in runserver in the newest versions, but for all of history, to develop PHP you had to install (and set up) apache and all your required modules locally. You're thinking like a seasoned pro :) For a newbie there is xampp - a familiar looking windows installer configures the Apache/PHP/MySQL (and others) stack, then it disappears into the backround and, largely, can be forgotten. This is huge for a new developer. Think about it this way; if you had a class called "Learn to Write Websites", for absolute beginners, I argue PHP is a good initial choice. Because you don't have to worry about the environment, how to server it, command line, package management - which, say, Ruby would require. You just chuck in a brief overview of how servers work in general, and then get them working on some PHP scripts, with instant results. I love this! I like Ruby, of course - it's powerful, has modern standards, and Rails is brilliant. But for a beginner, and even moderate, developer it is a bit of a pain to work with. With python and Django, I use virtualenv+pip to get a consistent environment, manage.py runserver to test locally. I can pretty much start developing everywhere (my desktop, my VPS, my laptop, that same laptop after I reformat it and install some new distro to test) with 3 commands. This sort of thing (http://pypi.python.org/pypi/virtualenv http://pypi.python.org/pypi/virtualenv) is non-trivial for a beginner. I'm not trying to defend PHP too much here; I like it, but it is a horrible language on many levels (as are other languages). It also just works, especially for beginners.
- shuzchen 15y ago
  I have a feeling you've gotten so used to deploying PHP that you've forgotten all the headaches involved in it. I idle in about 3 irc channels that provide PHP support, and pretty much every day someone comes in with some deployment related problem. Someone will come in complaining that they can't read some file (the user apache is running as can't traverse into that directory), complain about some missing function (did you install gd? -> show how to get phpinfo -> show how to install gd -> show how to modify php.ini to enable it -> show how to restart apache), or just general errors on their server (is your error reporting on? -> figure out what error reporting is locally -> figure out what error reporting is remotely -> explain how to change the setting -> etc.) I'd consider myself a seasoned PHP dev and it always takes me a few hours to figure out what happened when I get the white screen of death. XAMPP isn't any sort of solution to this, because not all servers are configured in the same way that XAMPP is (and the fact that they compile in most packages doesn't help). Developers at a local makerspace did a project last year using PHP, and even though there were tons of very smart guys, mostly everybody we brought onto the project took a whole afternoon to get set up. To me that's unacceptable. Understanding how to set up virtualenv isn't trivial for a beginner, but that doesn't stop a beginner from jumping into my python projects with no pain. All they need is to get easy_install (which is included in all distros I've seen) and do a git/hg pull (both probably also available from distro). The rest can be handled by a shell script in the repo that grabs pip+virtualenvwrapper, sets up the virtualenv and installs all the required packages. Then you tell them "if you need to work on this project, just type `workon projectname`", and with that they're ready to start hacking.
mjwalshe 15y ago
And what "EXACTLY" is the problem with having a devlopment system that mirrors the live production one? I worked at one place where our hardware guy who wanted the dev test and live systems to come from the same production batch from SUN just to make sure there where no strange MB rev problems. Ok having identical hardware is high end but seting up a system where your running the same linux distribution an the same version of mysql php etc is not exactly rocket science.
FuzzyDunlop 15y ago
I can attest to PHP deployment being an absolute nightmare. Of course, the difference is that we're not beginners here; far from it, really. While the beginner will love being able to open up an FTP client (probably one that's a browser extension) to upload a few files they've changed, that's not going to fly for us. We want proper deployment, source control, and for it to be used properly. We don't want to go anywhere near patching code directly on the live server. Just make sure the fixes are committed, nothing's broken, and run the deployment script of choice. The requirements for 'simplicity' are completely different. And it's for this reason I think Rails and Django* and the like become attractive prospects for developers who want a more reliable, consistent environment. * I'd struggle to list a PHP framework here because each one has a different vision of what the 'PHP way' is, probably because there is no 'PHP way'.
- corford 15y ago
  I don't understand how deployment, source control and not patching your live code have anything to do with PHP. Keep your source in a svn or git repo, export the new release branch or bug fix release to a testing box and once you're happy move it over to production. What does any of that have to do with PHP itself? If you're talking about moving from one version of PHP to another, just compile the new version of php in a different directory from the old version (e.g. /var/lib/php/5.4 ), create a new virtual server definition in apache and point it to the newly compiled php version (e.g. using Apache's mod_fcgid) and test your site. Once you're happy, make that virtual server live to the public and retire the older one.
greggman 15y ago
For all the "script kiddies" writing PHP they don't have to setup a server. Sign up for a $5 a month LAMP web hosting site. Done. Even those that do run their own server many linux installations have options to install the AMP part of LAMP by default. Again, nothing to do

drumdance 15y ago

I think you're mistaken to assume the beginner even has such a thing as a local development environment. When first learning PHP I wrote all my code on a $10/month web hosts, saving directly to the FTP server. Only later did I install a local dev (now made very easy with MAMP), learn about version control, PEAR etc.

mechanical_fish 15y ago
Yes, this is why PHP is easy for beginners. The standard practice is to edit directly on the server. It's a hard habit for a lot of PHP devs to break. It's very straightforward and direct: Edit a file, hit reload, see the result live. Something like, e.g., Heroku is awesome, yes, but not only do you need to learn how to debug a thing which you can't really touch in production, not only do you have to master the distinction between "the file I just edited here" and "the file on the remote machine"… but you have to use Git for that. I love Git, but years of watching PHP devs try to figure out Git have taught me just how intuitive it isn't.

ErrantX 15y ago

Sure, if you've got crazy simple requirements it's generally a cinch. Once you do anything remotely non-trivial (want to read from a file? use some third party library, handle errors in a consistent manner) then you start hitting into issues with file permissions, PHP version differences, modules not compiled in by default, etc etc. Although PHP suffers from this, I'm not sure it is alone. I suffer a lot of pain setting up Ruby environments (I don't think I've ever managed it the same way twice) and getting everything to play nice. Even Python, a language I am about as familiar with as PHP, has it's annoyances on this front. I suspect the difference is familiarity; I can deploy a working PHP environment in my sleep, because I've done it so many times. The other day I had to set up Java/Tomcat - literally the worst experience of my life... Also, PHP is not helpful in local development. I think there's a built-in runserver in the newest versions, but for all of history, to develop PHP you had to install (and set up) apache and all your required modules locally. You're thinking like a seasoned pro :) For a newbie there is xampp - a familiar looking windows installer configures the Apache/PHP/MySQL (and others) stack, then it disappears into the backround and, largely, can be forgotten. This is huge for a new developer. Think about it this way; if you had a class called "Learn to Write Websites", for absolute beginners, I argue PHP is a good initial choice. Because you don't have to worry about the environment, how to server it, command line, package management - which, say, Ruby would require. You just chuck in a brief overview of how servers work in general, and then get them working on some PHP scripts, with instant results. I love this! I like Ruby, of course - it's powerful, has modern standards, and Rails is brilliant. But for a beginner, and even moderate, developer it is a bit of a pain to work with. With python and Django, I use virtualenv+pip to get a consistent environment, manage.py runserver to test locally. I can pretty much start developing everywhere (my desktop, my VPS, my laptop, that same laptop after I reformat it and install some new distro to test) with 3 commands. This sort of thing (http://pypi.python.org/pypi/virtualenv http://pypi.python.org/pypi/virtualenv) is non-trivial for a beginner. I'm not trying to defend PHP too much here; I like it, but it is a horrible language on many levels (as are other languages). It also just works, especially for beginners.

shuzchen 15y ago
I have a feeling you've gotten so used to deploying PHP that you've forgotten all the headaches involved in it. I idle in about 3 irc channels that provide PHP support, and pretty much every day someone comes in with some deployment related problem. Someone will come in complaining that they can't read some file (the user apache is running as can't traverse into that directory), complain about some missing function (did you install gd? -> show how to get phpinfo -> show how to install gd -> show how to modify php.ini to enable it -> show how to restart apache), or just general errors on their server (is your error reporting on? -> figure out what error reporting is locally -> figure out what error reporting is remotely -> explain how to change the setting -> etc.) I'd consider myself a seasoned PHP dev and it always takes me a few hours to figure out what happened when I get the white screen of death. XAMPP isn't any sort of solution to this, because not all servers are configured in the same way that XAMPP is (and the fact that they compile in most packages doesn't help). Developers at a local makerspace did a project last year using PHP, and even though there were tons of very smart guys, mostly everybody we brought onto the project took a whole afternoon to get set up. To me that's unacceptable. Understanding how to set up virtualenv isn't trivial for a beginner, but that doesn't stop a beginner from jumping into my python projects with no pain. All they need is to get easy_install (which is included in all distros I've seen) and do a git/hg pull (both probably also available from distro). The rest can be handled by a shell script in the repo that grabs pip+virtualenvwrapper, sets up the virtualenv and installs all the required packages. Then you tell them "if you need to work on this project, just type `workon projectname`", and with that they're ready to start hacking.

mjwalshe 15y ago

And what "EXACTLY" is the problem with having a devlopment system that mirrors the live production one? I worked at one place where our hardware guy who wanted the dev test and live systems to come from the same production batch from SUN just to make sure there where no strange MB rev problems. Ok having identical hardware is high end but seting up a system where your running the same linux distribution an the same version of mysql php etc is not exactly rocket science.

FuzzyDunlop 15y ago

I can attest to PHP deployment being an absolute nightmare. Of course, the difference is that we're not beginners here; far from it, really. While the beginner will love being able to open up an FTP client (probably one that's a browser extension) to upload a few files they've changed, that's not going to fly for us. We want proper deployment, source control, and for it to be used properly. We don't want to go anywhere near patching code directly on the live server. Just make sure the fixes are committed, nothing's broken, and run the deployment script of choice. The requirements for 'simplicity' are completely different. And it's for this reason I think Rails and Django* and the like become attractive prospects for developers who want a more reliable, consistent environment. * I'd struggle to list a PHP framework here because each one has a different vision of what the 'PHP way' is, probably because there is no 'PHP way'.

corford 15y ago
I don't understand how deployment, source control and not patching your live code have anything to do with PHP. Keep your source in a svn or git repo, export the new release branch or bug fix release to a testing box and once you're happy move it over to production. What does any of that have to do with PHP itself? If you're talking about moving from one version of PHP to another, just compile the new version of php in a different directory from the old version (e.g. /var/lib/php/5.4 ), create a new virtual server definition in apache and point it to the newly compiled php version (e.g. using Apache's mod_fcgid) and test your site. Once you're happy, make that virtual server live to the public and retire the older one.

greggman 15y ago

For all the "script kiddies" writing PHP they don't have to setup a server. Sign up for a $5 a month LAMP web hosting site. Done. Even those that do run their own server many linux installations have options to install the AMP part of LAMP by default. Again, nothing to do