4 ms·

You are correct that the keybed will probably be the expensive and tricky part of this - lots of DIY synths and controllers opt for push-button keyboards or cap

You are correct that the keybed will probably be the expensive and tricky part of this - lots of DIY synths and controllers opt for push-button keyboards or capacitive touch for that reason. For small scale prototyping, there are templates for 3D-printed keys [1] and Doepfer also offers OEM kits for piano keys [2] (with unweighted keys being 175€ and weighted ones being 600€). [1] https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3760403 https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3760403 [2] https://gael.doepfer.eu/index.php/en/item/manual-fatar-61tp9 https://gael.doepfer.eu/index.php/en/item/manual-fatar-61tp9

chalcolithic 3y ago
Thank you! 175 for 7 octaves is not bad at all (although they say it's 5 octaves, but the photo shows 7 - confusing) ! It's a pity I'm thinking about a smaller size suitable for a backpack. But at least they exist! It's a good news
- strangecasts 3y ago
  I think that might be an error in the product photo- the 61TP/9 would have 5 octaves. These would also be full-size keys, I'm not sure if there are OEM kits for smaller keys - maybe Microkorg or Minilogue replacement keybeds could be good for that?
  - chalcolithic 3y ago
    >Microkorg or Minilogue replacement keybeds I can't have a product that is built using these keys, can I? I assume Korg will not be happy about it.
    - strangecasts 3y ago
      I was thinking more for prototyping there ;) (I'm assuming at this point you are trying to set up a first prototype or making something you can assemble yourself in a small run)
      - chalcolithic 3y ago
        Absolutely, but I must know what will follow if the prototype turns ok
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
        simne 3y ago
        Usually, schemes are copyrighted, or even patented. If you will just make 1-2 copies for your internal use, most probably nothing happen, because in legal practice exists negligible case, where not worth considering sue you. But if you will show copies on public, upload 3d model on your site, and/or try to sell them (make ads, other marketing, and yes, opensource copy of patented things also prohibited), on some moment they could make decision, this is not negligible and will sue you. To avoid such things, you could try to find their patents and make your own mechanics with other geometry. Also, patents are not forever, usual max term approx, up to 70 years, and than it become effectively public domain. So you could copy mechanics of some old piano, or expired patent.
        simne 3y ago
        BTW, I could design electronic suspension of key for you. It may not cheap, but you'll avoid any patent issues.
        chalcolithic 3y ago
        I'm far away from a point where I can make an informed decision about that yet. Thanks for your offer!
        simne 3y ago
        You will be informed only if you try. All business is really circle: begin -> try to make -> try to sell -> measure income -> decide if possible to continue (or if worth) -> if decide, return to begin. Nobody could tell you if it worth, without try. To be strict, exist people, who know everything, like taxi drivers, but for some fundamental reasons, they don't use their knowledge to earn money and got some better life.
defterGoose 3y ago
To piggyback on this: I've disassembled a 2nd gen Axiom 25 for research purposes. It's a pretty industry standard entry-level semi-weighted keyboard with decent controller capability. The keyboard and other buttons are implemented with custom large-format FSRs and several-shot molded (silicone?) membranes/switches. So you get physical feedback from a combination of a spring on the key root and the squishiness/variable force of the silicone contact. None of this is cheap, but it's not impossible to prototype either. It's just a very high bar. Edit: I was particularly impressed by the engineering of the drum pads.
weinzierl 3y ago
Keybeds is an almost sacred topic for many. One consequence is that even keyboard manufacturers often don't make their own keybeds but rely on third parties like Fatar or procure them from high quality piano manufacturers like Kawai. Another consequence is that no matter which keybed you choose, you will always have some people who don't like it and you unnecessarily limit your potential customer base. I think this is the reason why most midi controllers fall into one of three categories: - Try to get the best keybed they can justify. I would put Native Instruments in that class, because I see their keyboards as kind of MIDI controllers with keys. Some Arturia devices would also fit into that category. All of them don't rely on the MIDI controller as their main product but have primarily other revenue streams. - Include the cheapest keybed possible, because no matter how good your keybed is, many will hate it anyways, so why no just let everyone hate it. I spare you examples, the list is long. Might be viable but the question is if this is the place you want to be in? - MIDI controllers that integrate well with existing keyboards. One example is the MonogramCC, which can be arranged around your keyboard. Special Waves is similar. I'm sure there are others. As much as I love the idea of tight integration, I think the last category is the commercially most viable approach for a small manufacturer.

chalcolithic 3y ago

Thank you! 175 for 7 octaves is not bad at all (although they say it's 5 octaves, but the photo shows 7 - confusing) ! It's a pity I'm thinking about a smaller size suitable for a backpack. But at least they exist! It's a good news

strangecasts 3y ago
I think that might be an error in the product photo- the 61TP/9 would have 5 octaves. These would also be full-size keys, I'm not sure if there are OEM kits for smaller keys - maybe Microkorg or Minilogue replacement keybeds could be good for that?
- chalcolithic 3y ago
  >Microkorg or Minilogue replacement keybeds I can't have a product that is built using these keys, can I? I assume Korg will not be happy about it.
  - strangecasts 3y ago
    I was thinking more for prototyping there ;) (I'm assuming at this point you are trying to set up a first prototype or making something you can assemble yourself in a small run)
    - chalcolithic 3y ago
      Absolutely, but I must know what will follow if the prototype turns ok
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - simne 3y ago
        Usually, schemes are copyrighted, or even patented. If you will just make 1-2 copies for your internal use, most probably nothing happen, because in legal practice exists negligible case, where not worth considering sue you. But if you will show copies on public, upload 3d model on your site, and/or try to sell them (make ads, other marketing, and yes, opensource copy of patented things also prohibited), on some moment they could make decision, this is not negligible and will sue you. To avoid such things, you could try to find their patents and make your own mechanics with other geometry. Also, patents are not forever, usual max term approx, up to 70 years, and than it become effectively public domain. So you could copy mechanics of some old piano, or expired patent.
      - simne 3y ago
        BTW, I could design electronic suspension of key for you. It may not cheap, but you'll avoid any patent issues.
        chalcolithic 3y ago
        I'm far away from a point where I can make an informed decision about that yet. Thanks for your offer!
        simne 3y ago
        You will be informed only if you try. All business is really circle: begin -> try to make -> try to sell -> measure income -> decide if possible to continue (or if worth) -> if decide, return to begin. Nobody could tell you if it worth, without try. To be strict, exist people, who know everything, like taxi drivers, but for some fundamental reasons, they don't use their knowledge to earn money and got some better life.

defterGoose 3y ago

To piggyback on this: I've disassembled a 2nd gen Axiom 25 for research purposes. It's a pretty industry standard entry-level semi-weighted keyboard with decent controller capability. The keyboard and other buttons are implemented with custom large-format FSRs and several-shot molded (silicone?) membranes/switches. So you get physical feedback from a combination of a spring on the key root and the squishiness/variable force of the silicone contact. None of this is cheap, but it's not impossible to prototype either. It's just a very high bar. Edit: I was particularly impressed by the engineering of the drum pads.

weinzierl 3y ago

Keybeds is an almost sacred topic for many. One consequence is that even keyboard manufacturers often don't make their own keybeds but rely on third parties like Fatar or procure them from high quality piano manufacturers like Kawai. Another consequence is that no matter which keybed you choose, you will always have some people who don't like it and you unnecessarily limit your potential customer base. I think this is the reason why most midi controllers fall into one of three categories: - Try to get the best keybed they can justify. I would put Native Instruments in that class, because I see their keyboards as kind of MIDI controllers with keys. Some Arturia devices would also fit into that category. All of them don't rely on the MIDI controller as their main product but have primarily other revenue streams. - Include the cheapest keybed possible, because no matter how good your keybed is, many will hate it anyways, so why no just let everyone hate it. I spare you examples, the list is long. Might be viable but the question is if this is the place you want to be in? - MIDI controllers that integrate well with existing keyboards. One example is the MonogramCC, which can be arranged around your keyboard. Special Waves is similar. I'm sure there are others. As much as I love the idea of tight integration, I think the last category is the commercially most viable approach for a small manufacturer.