3 ms·

What word would you propose? Seems pretty accurate. While I think it's possible you're right that the cyclists are usually the victims, that's not a foregone c

What word would you propose? Seems pretty accurate. While I think it's possible you're right that the cyclists are usually the victims, that's not a foregone conclusion for at least two reasons: - cyclists can hit pedestrians who are even more vulnerable. Pedestrians are also included in this analysis. - as much as cyclists hate to hear it, they're the most reckless users of the road on average (even worse than scooter drivers). Every time I walk around in London I see them cutting red lights to conserve momentum, changing from using car rules to pedestrian rules when it helps them, driving quickly across pedestrian crossings (too fast for cars to see them coming), and other "convenient" actions that are hard for cars/pedestrians to safely deal with.

jeffwass 3y ago
Seconding your at two bullets. Have had several incidents with dangerous cyclists ignoring zebra crossings (where pedestrians have right of way), even when I’ve been pushing a baby in the pushchair. Seems to be getting worse now with the e-cycles and higher speeds.
- soco 3y ago
  And god forbid you're walking your dog on a leash longer than a meter - you have to pull it for dear life every 5 minutes when a e-bike rider zooms incoming at 20mph on the pedestrian lane because it happens to be empty at the time. I'm aware that interfering with their ride at that speed could easily mean death but the devil on my shoulder just won't shut up.
lambda_garden 3y ago
> as much as cyclists hate to hear it, they're the most reckless users of the road on average Citation needed.
- FartyMcFarter 3y ago
  I speak from personal observation - not trying to write a research paper or an encyclopedia article here. I don't see any other road users engaging in those behaviours on a frequent basis. As an example, it's extremely rare for cars in London to cut red lights, pedestrians sometimes do but they're much slower and therefore easier to see coming. The behaviour of switching back and forth from car/pedestrian rules is not something other road users do here. But cyclists do that extremely frequently, to the point that it seems hard data isn't necessary to form a reasonably certain (but not scientific) conclusion. If cars drove like cyclists, it would be complete chaos. Do you disagree?
  - lambda_garden 3y ago
    Yes, I disagree. Anecodtally, I see motorists driving whilst using their phone on a daily basis. I rarely see cycling jumping red lights. I also see motorists jumping red lights, but rarely. I frequently see motorists on the wrong side of the road trying to skip traffic queues. But you claim was about recklessness. Poor driving is much, much more reckless than poor cycling, given the kinetic energy involved.
    - FartyMcFarter 3y ago
      > I rarely see cycling jumping red lights. Do you live in London? I find that surprising since I see it literally every time I go the centre (which is quite often).
  - tonyedgecombe 3y ago
    >I speak from personal observation Anecdotes aren't data. >As an example, it's extremely rare for cars in London to cut red lights, pedestrians sometimes do but they're much slower and therefore easier to see coming. On the other hand: https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2009/dec/15/cycling-bike-accidents-study https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2009/dec/15/cycling... https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2019/05/10/cyclists-break-far-fewer-road-rules-than-motorists-finds-new-video-study/#638693ba4bfa https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2019/05/10/cyclists... https://usa.streetsblog.org/2018/01/03/study-cyclists-dont-break-traffic-laws-any-more-than-drivers-do https://usa.streetsblog.org/2018/01/03/study-cyclists-dont-b...
hyper_reality 3y ago
There are definitely a lot of reckless cyclists, but it's worth keeping things in perspective. According to the Department for Transport's report, there were 41 pedestrians and 7 cyclists killed in traffic collisions in Greater London in 2022. Pedal cyclists were listed as the "other vehicle" involved in fatal collisions 0 times, while cars were listed 39 times, and goods vehicles 23 times. As stated "other vehicles" does not directly describe who is to blame for a collision, but it's a proxy measure for it. https://content.tfl.gov.uk/casualties-in-greater-london-2022.pdf https://content.tfl.gov.uk/casualties-in-greater-london-2022...
- FartyMcFarter 3y ago
  I didn't mean to imply that cyclists are out there killing pedestrians all the time. That's the most extreme case, it's not that easy to get killed by a bike. Much more likely to get injured or have a big scare.
pharmakom 3y ago
The people cycling in London are those who are not terrified by the SUV drivers, minivans, mopeds, HGVs… are you surprised that they skew less risk averse? And why even bring this up? Does it follow that more risk taking behaviour (a claim which you did not substantiate) means that the infrastructure is safe enough and that this is not a real problem? Of course not.

jeffwass 3y ago

Seconding your at two bullets. Have had several incidents with dangerous cyclists ignoring zebra crossings (where pedestrians have right of way), even when I’ve been pushing a baby in the pushchair. Seems to be getting worse now with the e-cycles and higher speeds.

soco 3y ago
And god forbid you're walking your dog on a leash longer than a meter - you have to pull it for dear life every 5 minutes when a e-bike rider zooms incoming at 20mph on the pedestrian lane because it happens to be empty at the time. I'm aware that interfering with their ride at that speed could easily mean death but the devil on my shoulder just won't shut up.

lambda_garden 3y ago

> as much as cyclists hate to hear it, they're the most reckless users of the road on average Citation needed.

FartyMcFarter 3y ago
I speak from personal observation - not trying to write a research paper or an encyclopedia article here. I don't see any other road users engaging in those behaviours on a frequent basis. As an example, it's extremely rare for cars in London to cut red lights, pedestrians sometimes do but they're much slower and therefore easier to see coming. The behaviour of switching back and forth from car/pedestrian rules is not something other road users do here. But cyclists do that extremely frequently, to the point that it seems hard data isn't necessary to form a reasonably certain (but not scientific) conclusion. If cars drove like cyclists, it would be complete chaos. Do you disagree?
- lambda_garden 3y ago
  Yes, I disagree. Anecodtally, I see motorists driving whilst using their phone on a daily basis. I rarely see cycling jumping red lights. I also see motorists jumping red lights, but rarely. I frequently see motorists on the wrong side of the road trying to skip traffic queues. But you claim was about recklessness. Poor driving is much, much more reckless than poor cycling, given the kinetic energy involved.
  - FartyMcFarter 3y ago
    > I rarely see cycling jumping red lights. Do you live in London? I find that surprising since I see it literally every time I go the centre (which is quite often).
- tonyedgecombe 3y ago
  >I speak from personal observation Anecdotes aren't data. >As an example, it's extremely rare for cars in London to cut red lights, pedestrians sometimes do but they're much slower and therefore easier to see coming. On the other hand: https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2009/dec/15/cycling-bike-accidents-study https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2009/dec/15/cycling... https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2019/05/10/cyclists-break-far-fewer-road-rules-than-motorists-finds-new-video-study/#638693ba4bfa https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2019/05/10/cyclists... https://usa.streetsblog.org/2018/01/03/study-cyclists-dont-break-traffic-laws-any-more-than-drivers-do https://usa.streetsblog.org/2018/01/03/study-cyclists-dont-b...

hyper_reality 3y ago

There are definitely a lot of reckless cyclists, but it's worth keeping things in perspective. According to the Department for Transport's report, there were 41 pedestrians and 7 cyclists killed in traffic collisions in Greater London in 2022. Pedal cyclists were listed as the "other vehicle" involved in fatal collisions 0 times, while cars were listed 39 times, and goods vehicles 23 times. As stated "other vehicles" does not directly describe who is to blame for a collision, but it's a proxy measure for it. https://content.tfl.gov.uk/casualties-in-greater-london-2022.pdf https://content.tfl.gov.uk/casualties-in-greater-london-2022...

FartyMcFarter 3y ago
I didn't mean to imply that cyclists are out there killing pedestrians all the time. That's the most extreme case, it's not that easy to get killed by a bike. Much more likely to get injured or have a big scare.

pharmakom 3y ago

The people cycling in London are those who are not terrified by the SUV drivers, minivans, mopeds, HGVs… are you surprised that they skew less risk averse? And why even bring this up? Does it follow that more risk taking behaviour (a claim which you did not substantiate) means that the infrastructure is safe enough and that this is not a real problem? Of course not.