5 ms·

I remember this. It was seen as an extremely serious breach of trust here in Europe. I remember the media trying to downplay it and dumdums on facebook spreadin

by Garvi 3y ago

I remember this. It was seen as an extremely serious breach of trust here in Europe. I remember the media trying to downplay it and dumdums on facebook spreading nonsense like "This is nothing, everybody spies. move on, sheeesh".

_8j50 3y ago
Well, like..it is? Are you saying it was an actual breach of trust? Spies spy on everyone, they even spy on their own citizens. Next you might tell me EU spy agencies don't spy on their own people or other EU countries.
- Garvi 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - _8j50 3y ago
    You're calling me a 12 year old because you refuse to confront your naive presumptions? Ok adult person, let me use adult words: cladenstine intellige agencies specifically exist to enact espionage and sabotage explicitly violating both national laws and international treaties. They have rules such as how diplomatic cover spies work and non-cover spies work and how countries react to them when discovered but their job is specifically this. Not war time intelligence or just spying on poor countries. Military intelligence exists as the name implies for spying on militaries. Clandestine intelligence officers and their assets break laws, treaties and trust on your behalf without telling you so you can act surprised and pretend your bloody hands are clean.
    - Garvi 3y ago
      I'm not going to be debating you in circles. You chose to completely ignore my points and misrepresent them, then insulted me. You should go back to reddit where you'll be plenty popular. Edit: In fact this is so bad, if you were talking to the EU version of yourself, they'd be telling you you're talking nonsense as none of this ever really happened. The US never spies on their allies.
      - _8j50 3y ago
        I don't even have a reddit account and you initiated ad-hominm when calling me a 12 year old and ironically saying "i don't mean to". But let's drop the silly personal attacks? > You chose to completely ignore my points and misrepresent them If you say so. You literally have chinese police stations in every major eu capital. You have like a dozen countries spying on any major eu country at least at any given time. But "america bad".
        Garvi 3y ago
        Can I just politely ask you what your primary news sources are?
        _8j50 3y ago
        Sure. Theguardian and the bbc. I opine that news sources outside of a country yet well interested in the events of a country tend to be the most objective. In this case the UK. Al-jazeera is ok but they are very biased in middle eastern events in which the US often is involved.
        rijoja 3y ago
        Yeah since Europe is supposed to be the same side as the US, which is not the case for China. Perhaps Europe should side with the Russians and Chinese instead since apparently all actors will try to spy on us any way?
        _8j50 3y ago
        That's sort of the point of spying, european countries might as well be on China or Russia's side and they will in turn spy on the US to make sure the US is not subverting things in their own countries. Germany for example has gas pipelines with russia, they would want to know if US intel bombed it at the start of ukraine war or if it was actually russia. Spies are not soldiers, spying is not considered attacking in the same sense as war. It is collecting info so policy makers can make the best decision. And if it so happens EU leaders want to side with russia or china, US intel will know in advance and try to run interference. When trump was elected, UK intel used a retired MI6 agent to publicize the intel they collected on the american citizen and president elect. And the US was grateful.
    - rijoja 3y ago
      It's absolutely ridiculous to state that it's not a breach of trust for a country to spy on its ally.
      - _8j50 3y ago
        It is diplomatically when they are found and it is made public. But when they are not made public, usually the counterintel spies keep an eye on them. Of course the US spies on the UK to make sure their gov is doing ok, and the UK spies on the US to make sure their interests are kept even though they are as close of an ally as you can imagine. But spies act on behalf of the president/prime minister ultimately, if there is no political interest the spies won't actually do much. But if marie lepenn (or whatever her name is) becomes the leader of france for example, the US would want to know if anything crazy that affects US interests is being decided by her. When trump was elected, are EU countries supposed to hope he doesn't leak their critical intel the US already has to putin? Of course they'll need to collect intel. But usually it just means paying an asset to leak info, when it becomes permanently installed spying infrastructure it becomes to embarassing for the target when discovered.
        rijoja 3y ago
        Aha and if a bad guy becomes president in the US, and a good guy becomes president in France, should we be happy about the supposedly benevolent CIA interfering in the French democracy then as well or what?
        _8j50 3y ago
        No, you should be happy the CIA did nothing because even if they did you would not know about it. But if it so happens they did and you find out, you should feel angry but you should not pretend it is business unusual. Of course espionage is not election interfernece neccesarily unless you consider things like leaking info to french or US media interference (legit info not disinformation). Friendly countries spy on each other to protect each other not to harm. Like anything intent, context and relationship is important. It's not ok for people to touch your butt for example unless people are your chosen sexual partner. It's not ok to kill a person, unless your intent is to defend yourself from mortal peril. It's not ok to spy on your friend, unless you are concerned your friend might commit suicide. In some cases it makes the act excusable and in others it makes the anger less inflamed.
  - lm28469 3y ago
    > Jesus Christ, of course not. What is this insanity? Sweet summer child... https://cepa.org/article/europe-uses-spyware-on-its-own-citizens/ https://cepa.org/article/europe-uses-spyware-on-its-own-citi... https://slate.com/technology/2022/11/europe-spyware-scandal-pegasus-report.html https://slate.com/technology/2022/11/europe-spyware-scandal-...

by Garvi 3y ago

_8j50 3y ago

Well, like..it is? Are you saying it was an actual breach of trust? Spies spy on everyone, they even spy on their own citizens. Next you might tell me EU spy agencies don't spy on their own people or other EU countries.

Garvi 3y ago
[flagged]
- _8j50 3y ago
  You're calling me a 12 year old because you refuse to confront your naive presumptions? Ok adult person, let me use adult words: cladenstine intellige agencies specifically exist to enact espionage and sabotage explicitly violating both national laws and international treaties. They have rules such as how diplomatic cover spies work and non-cover spies work and how countries react to them when discovered but their job is specifically this. Not war time intelligence or just spying on poor countries. Military intelligence exists as the name implies for spying on militaries. Clandestine intelligence officers and their assets break laws, treaties and trust on your behalf without telling you so you can act surprised and pretend your bloody hands are clean.
  - Garvi 3y ago
    I'm not going to be debating you in circles. You chose to completely ignore my points and misrepresent them, then insulted me. You should go back to reddit where you'll be plenty popular. Edit: In fact this is so bad, if you were talking to the EU version of yourself, they'd be telling you you're talking nonsense as none of this ever really happened. The US never spies on their allies.
    - _8j50 3y ago
      I don't even have a reddit account and you initiated ad-hominm when calling me a 12 year old and ironically saying "i don't mean to". But let's drop the silly personal attacks? > You chose to completely ignore my points and misrepresent them If you say so. You literally have chinese police stations in every major eu capital. You have like a dozen countries spying on any major eu country at least at any given time. But "america bad".
      - Garvi 3y ago
        Can I just politely ask you what your primary news sources are?
        _8j50 3y ago
        Sure. Theguardian and the bbc. I opine that news sources outside of a country yet well interested in the events of a country tend to be the most objective. In this case the UK. Al-jazeera is ok but they are very biased in middle eastern events in which the US often is involved.
      - rijoja 3y ago
        Yeah since Europe is supposed to be the same side as the US, which is not the case for China. Perhaps Europe should side with the Russians and Chinese instead since apparently all actors will try to spy on us any way?
        _8j50 3y ago
        That's sort of the point of spying, european countries might as well be on China or Russia's side and they will in turn spy on the US to make sure the US is not subverting things in their own countries. Germany for example has gas pipelines with russia, they would want to know if US intel bombed it at the start of ukraine war or if it was actually russia. Spies are not soldiers, spying is not considered attacking in the same sense as war. It is collecting info so policy makers can make the best decision. And if it so happens EU leaders want to side with russia or china, US intel will know in advance and try to run interference. When trump was elected, UK intel used a retired MI6 agent to publicize the intel they collected on the american citizen and president elect. And the US was grateful.
  - rijoja 3y ago
    It's absolutely ridiculous to state that it's not a breach of trust for a country to spy on its ally.
    - _8j50 3y ago
      It is diplomatically when they are found and it is made public. But when they are not made public, usually the counterintel spies keep an eye on them. Of course the US spies on the UK to make sure their gov is doing ok, and the UK spies on the US to make sure their interests are kept even though they are as close of an ally as you can imagine. But spies act on behalf of the president/prime minister ultimately, if there is no political interest the spies won't actually do much. But if marie lepenn (or whatever her name is) becomes the leader of france for example, the US would want to know if anything crazy that affects US interests is being decided by her. When trump was elected, are EU countries supposed to hope he doesn't leak their critical intel the US already has to putin? Of course they'll need to collect intel. But usually it just means paying an asset to leak info, when it becomes permanently installed spying infrastructure it becomes to embarassing for the target when discovered.
      - rijoja 3y ago
        Aha and if a bad guy becomes president in the US, and a good guy becomes president in France, should we be happy about the supposedly benevolent CIA interfering in the French democracy then as well or what?
        _8j50 3y ago
        No, you should be happy the CIA did nothing because even if they did you would not know about it. But if it so happens they did and you find out, you should feel angry but you should not pretend it is business unusual. Of course espionage is not election interfernece neccesarily unless you consider things like leaking info to french or US media interference (legit info not disinformation). Friendly countries spy on each other to protect each other not to harm. Like anything intent, context and relationship is important. It's not ok for people to touch your butt for example unless people are your chosen sexual partner. It's not ok to kill a person, unless your intent is to defend yourself from mortal peril. It's not ok to spy on your friend, unless you are concerned your friend might commit suicide. In some cases it makes the act excusable and in others it makes the anger less inflamed.
- lm28469 3y ago
  > Jesus Christ, of course not. What is this insanity? Sweet summer child... https://cepa.org/article/europe-uses-spyware-on-its-own-citizens/ https://cepa.org/article/europe-uses-spyware-on-its-own-citi... https://slate.com/technology/2022/11/europe-spyware-scandal-pegasus-report.html https://slate.com/technology/2022/11/europe-spyware-scandal-...