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> Windows/Mac which the vast majority of desktop users use. Use for...what? Windows is primarily used for people who play games. Mac is used by people who want

> Windows/Mac which the vast majority of desktop users use. Use for...what? Windows is primarily used for people who play games. Mac is used by people who want tech jewelry. Neither of which is related to development. And it would make more sense to develop on a platform that runs the same kernel as the servers. This is the reason why the whole WSL2 exists with VSCode integration. Microsoft quickly realized that if they want to compete in the cloud with Azure, they have to be Linux first.

pjmlp 3y ago
And that is why so many developers buy Apple devices and code on macOS, and walk around with them on FOSDEM, because of the kernel.
- ActorNightly 3y ago
  ... no, because its tech jewelry lol. That is literally the history of Apple. Or are we still going to pretend that a computer that you don't own, because Apple tells you what software you can and can't install on it, is somehow better for development?
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    It is a UNIX desktop that actually works, and doesn't need endless hours researching for hardware compatibility or custom kernel parameters. Android/Linux, ChromeOS/Linux, WebOS/Linux also work great for the same reasons. Other than that, better leave it on servers and embedded devices being a UNIX headless clone, with cloud and hardware vendors taking the trouble to keep it running.
    - ActorNightly 3y ago
      >doesn't need endless hours researching for hardware compatibility or custom kernel parameters. Yeah so this is indicative of the fact that you don't really have ANY experience with modern Linux. You can take a well supported laptop and install Linux Mint on it and everything will just work, no tweaking required. Try it sometime before making 10 year old arguments that Mac users were making back in the day and apparently still do now. Furthermore, Id go even further and argue that as a developer, learning how to configure basic documented things should be something that you know and is fairly straightforward for you to to do, just like installing tooling you need for your development.
      - VaxWithSex 3y ago
        Would like to know which laptop that might be...
        ActorNightly 3y ago
        Pretty much most and Thinkpad or Dell works out of the box. You may have to change a setting here or there for some advanced things like adaptive charging, but most of the time the core OS works very well. There is also Framework laptops, and Librem laptops that are linux first. My current DD is an Ideapad with Manjaro, which even being somewhat more bleeding edge than Debian based ones, has not only been flawless, but things like Nvidia Optimus work straight out of the box, with external displays.
        Jenda_ 3y ago
        > Pretty much most and Thinkpad or Dell works out of the box. …except for AMD ones with AMD GPU :( https://www.wezm.net/v2/posts/2020/linux-amdgpu-pixel-format/ https://www.wezm.net/v2/posts/2020/linux-amdgpu-pixel-format... or Intel ones with a particular wifi card https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=203709 https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=203709 I however agree with you that at least for me, the Linux desktop on almost all laptops and desktops "just works". Especially when comparing with Macbooks - you have way less hardware choice there.
      - pjmlp 3y ago
        My dear, I do have plenty experience with "modern" Linux, plenty of it, https://www.idgshop.de/linuxwelt https://www.idgshop.de/linuxwelt As usual we get the answer, "Have you ever tried distribution XYZ?" The magical one that will sort out all problems, and then doesn't.
        ActorNightly 3y ago
        Im sorry but no. I have set up probably over 100 linux laptops at this point. It used to require more tweaks back in the early 2010s. Now you can get any Dell or Thinkpad, install Mint without issues. You must be doing something wrong if you are having to tweak kernel parameters.
  - fragmede 3y ago
    Apple's locking down of macOS has been greatly exaggerated. You can install anything you want on a Mac, Apple doesn't stop you. The same can't be said for iOS or iPadOS, however.
    - ActorNightly 3y ago
      >You can install anything you want on a Mac Can I install Ubuntu?
      - fragmede 3y ago
        if you're on an Intel Mac, yes. if you're on apple Silicon, yes, but it's not user friendly (but hey, that's Linux for you)
        ActorNightly 3y ago
        Intel Macs aren't relevant anymore. As for apple silicon, running a ubuntu VM doesn't count. You also need to use Parallels, which is not free. The Asahi Linux method is still very buggy because its essentially a reverse engineer of Apple. And its not guaranteed to ever not be buggy, because Apple. And Apple will 100% kill it if it ever gets to popular because it runs well, because they will lose revenue streams they get with MacOS. So the definitive answer is no, Macs are still pretty much locked down. I get that people like the battery life and the hardware of Macs, which is fine for personal use, but objectively for a laptop that is going to be used for development, you get much more utility out of buying a "non mac" laptop of your choice in the form factor, and installing Linux on it.
        notpushkin 3y ago
        > The Asahi Linux method is still very buggy It's been getting way better lately. I don't daily drive it mainly because I've yet to move my stuff from the macOS partition.
        ActorNightly 3y ago
oblio 3y ago
Enterprise software development says hello to your world.

pjmlp 3y ago

And that is why so many developers buy Apple devices and code on macOS, and walk around with them on FOSDEM, because of the kernel.

ActorNightly 3y ago
... no, because its tech jewelry lol. That is literally the history of Apple. Or are we still going to pretend that a computer that you don't own, because Apple tells you what software you can and can't install on it, is somehow better for development?
- pjmlp 3y ago
  It is a UNIX desktop that actually works, and doesn't need endless hours researching for hardware compatibility or custom kernel parameters. Android/Linux, ChromeOS/Linux, WebOS/Linux also work great for the same reasons. Other than that, better leave it on servers and embedded devices being a UNIX headless clone, with cloud and hardware vendors taking the trouble to keep it running.
  - ActorNightly 3y ago
    >doesn't need endless hours researching for hardware compatibility or custom kernel parameters. Yeah so this is indicative of the fact that you don't really have ANY experience with modern Linux. You can take a well supported laptop and install Linux Mint on it and everything will just work, no tweaking required. Try it sometime before making 10 year old arguments that Mac users were making back in the day and apparently still do now. Furthermore, Id go even further and argue that as a developer, learning how to configure basic documented things should be something that you know and is fairly straightforward for you to to do, just like installing tooling you need for your development.
    - VaxWithSex 3y ago
      Would like to know which laptop that might be...
      - ActorNightly 3y ago
        Pretty much most and Thinkpad or Dell works out of the box. You may have to change a setting here or there for some advanced things like adaptive charging, but most of the time the core OS works very well. There is also Framework laptops, and Librem laptops that are linux first. My current DD is an Ideapad with Manjaro, which even being somewhat more bleeding edge than Debian based ones, has not only been flawless, but things like Nvidia Optimus work straight out of the box, with external displays.
        Jenda_ 3y ago
        > Pretty much most and Thinkpad or Dell works out of the box. …except for AMD ones with AMD GPU :( https://www.wezm.net/v2/posts/2020/linux-amdgpu-pixel-format/ https://www.wezm.net/v2/posts/2020/linux-amdgpu-pixel-format... or Intel ones with a particular wifi card https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=203709 https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=203709 I however agree with you that at least for me, the Linux desktop on almost all laptops and desktops "just works". Especially when comparing with Macbooks - you have way less hardware choice there.
    - pjmlp 3y ago
      My dear, I do have plenty experience with "modern" Linux, plenty of it, https://www.idgshop.de/linuxwelt https://www.idgshop.de/linuxwelt As usual we get the answer, "Have you ever tried distribution XYZ?" The magical one that will sort out all problems, and then doesn't.
      - ActorNightly 3y ago
        Im sorry but no. I have set up probably over 100 linux laptops at this point. It used to require more tweaks back in the early 2010s. Now you can get any Dell or Thinkpad, install Mint without issues. You must be doing something wrong if you are having to tweak kernel parameters.
- fragmede 3y ago
  Apple's locking down of macOS has been greatly exaggerated. You can install anything you want on a Mac, Apple doesn't stop you. The same can't be said for iOS or iPadOS, however.
  - ActorNightly 3y ago
    >You can install anything you want on a Mac Can I install Ubuntu?
    - fragmede 3y ago
      if you're on an Intel Mac, yes. if you're on apple Silicon, yes, but it's not user friendly (but hey, that's Linux for you)
      - ActorNightly 3y ago
        Intel Macs aren't relevant anymore. As for apple silicon, running a ubuntu VM doesn't count. You also need to use Parallels, which is not free. The Asahi Linux method is still very buggy because its essentially a reverse engineer of Apple. And its not guaranteed to ever not be buggy, because Apple. And Apple will 100% kill it if it ever gets to popular because it runs well, because they will lose revenue streams they get with MacOS. So the definitive answer is no, Macs are still pretty much locked down. I get that people like the battery life and the hardware of Macs, which is fine for personal use, but objectively for a laptop that is going to be used for development, you get much more utility out of buying a "non mac" laptop of your choice in the form factor, and installing Linux on it.
        notpushkin 3y ago
        > The Asahi Linux method is still very buggy It's been getting way better lately. I don't daily drive it mainly because I've yet to move my stuff from the macOS partition.
        ActorNightly 3y ago

oblio 3y ago

Enterprise software development says hello to your world.