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> This isn't about capitalism. How is unconstrained growth at all costs not part of this? > Wealthy nations are seeing reductions in total CO2 emissions Beca

by bmitc 3y ago

> This isn't about capitalism. How is unconstrained growth at all costs not part of this? > Wealthy nations are seeing reductions in total CO2 emissions Because they are off shored, are they not? And developing countries are increasingly using fossil fuels because of their adoption of capitalism and of technologies (i.e., customers) from developed countries, are they not?

inglor_cz 3y ago
"How is unconstrained growth at all costs not part of this?" It may be a part, but it may also be a lazy ideological distraction. For example, here north of the Alps, a significant factor in the total CO2 budget is heating of homes, which cannot be offshored and cannot be simply banned; previous generations had this problem, too, and they cut down most of the primeval forests for the same purpose. (Europe is now significantly more forested than in the 16th century.) Looking back at my childhood in the Czechoslovak Socialist Republic, our heating was notoriously dirty, burning low-quality coal directly in houses, streets full of stinking smoke. Our centrally planned economy stagnated (degrowth!), so replacing old dirty coal-based equipment with something more modern was economically challenging.
- kelseyfrog 3y ago
  This is a little like saying that because blood sugar disregulation can come from T1 diabetes that it can't come from T2 diabetes. Just because a socialist country caused pollution, doesn't mean that capitalism cannot cause pollution for its own reasons.
  - inglor_cz 3y ago
    It is sort-of a warning for idealists who think that socialism treats nature better. I notice lionization of socialism among young Americans quite often, it is a distant and luring ideal for them, with no personal experience to correct the image. Pretty much the universal experience from east of the Iron Curtain was the opposite. Ecological initiatives were a part of the coalition of the unhappy that brought the regimes down at the end of the eighties.
  - Retric 3y ago
    If one economic system does X then it’s a function of that economic system, if every single economic system does X then it’s a function of humanity.
    - kelseyfrog 3y ago
      Yes, but an important distinction lies between every single economic system vs every implemented economic system. Extrapolating universal human behavior under the latter is, as I'm sure you would agree, tempting, but easily to blunder.
      - Retric 3y ago
        I would argue humanity is the limiting factor for which economic systems get implemented. But I get your point.
specialist 3y ago
It's about the trend lines. Population continues to grow. Energy per capita in the developing economies continues to increase. Whereas in the developed economies energy per capita is decreasing, it's still much higher than in developing economies. The only way thru this is adding more renewable energy capacity faster, for everyone, everywhere. A lot more. Fast enough to both replace fossil fuels and keep up with demand.

by bmitc 3y ago

inglor_cz 3y ago

"How is unconstrained growth at all costs not part of this?" It may be a part, but it may also be a lazy ideological distraction. For example, here north of the Alps, a significant factor in the total CO2 budget is heating of homes, which cannot be offshored and cannot be simply banned; previous generations had this problem, too, and they cut down most of the primeval forests for the same purpose. (Europe is now significantly more forested than in the 16th century.) Looking back at my childhood in the Czechoslovak Socialist Republic, our heating was notoriously dirty, burning low-quality coal directly in houses, streets full of stinking smoke. Our centrally planned economy stagnated (degrowth!), so replacing old dirty coal-based equipment with something more modern was economically challenging.

kelseyfrog 3y ago
This is a little like saying that because blood sugar disregulation can come from T1 diabetes that it can't come from T2 diabetes. Just because a socialist country caused pollution, doesn't mean that capitalism cannot cause pollution for its own reasons.
- inglor_cz 3y ago
  It is sort-of a warning for idealists who think that socialism treats nature better. I notice lionization of socialism among young Americans quite often, it is a distant and luring ideal for them, with no personal experience to correct the image. Pretty much the universal experience from east of the Iron Curtain was the opposite. Ecological initiatives were a part of the coalition of the unhappy that brought the regimes down at the end of the eighties.
- Retric 3y ago
  If one economic system does X then it’s a function of that economic system, if every single economic system does X then it’s a function of humanity.
  - kelseyfrog 3y ago
    Yes, but an important distinction lies between every single economic system vs every implemented economic system. Extrapolating universal human behavior under the latter is, as I'm sure you would agree, tempting, but easily to blunder.
    - Retric 3y ago
      I would argue humanity is the limiting factor for which economic systems get implemented. But I get your point.

specialist 3y ago

It's about the trend lines. Population continues to grow. Energy per capita in the developing economies continues to increase. Whereas in the developed economies energy per capita is decreasing, it's still much higher than in developing economies. The only way thru this is adding more renewable energy capacity faster, for everyone, everywhere. A lot more. Fast enough to both replace fossil fuels and keep up with demand.