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I find it odd that the standard policy is to leave packages unattended in any form in the first place. This is another one of those things that is not standard

I find it odd that the standard policy is to leave packages unattended in any form in the first place. This is another one of those things that is not standard globally. E.g for us in South Africa, this would be unthinkable, regardless of how much time it saves the delivery company. The only time a parcel is left at the door is when it's UberEats. Otherwise delivery is rescheduled if we don't physically collect parcels in person. This is partly an access issue (many houses/apartments/estates have gated access) and largely a trust/crime issue.

vladvasiliu 3y ago
Here in France that would be unthinkable, too. But the US still seems to have some remnants of a high trust society, which has been only a temporary thing in many places, if at all. Not having such a society adds frictions in all kind of interactions. In the end, that means cost. I can understand why people and company try to shift that cost when it comes up in areas where it wasn't present beforehand.
- brabel 3y ago
  Here in Sweden, you can agree to let the delivery company just leave the package by the front door, but it's only common for low value things. Most things are delivered to your nearest post office counter (usually in your closest supermarket) and recently, to a locked postbox nearby which you unlock online with their app.
  - bravura 3y ago
    Here in Berlin Germany, packages are given to whichever neighbor in your apartment building happens to reply to the buzzer fastest, typically the ground floor ones. (Elevators are also uncommon.) I'm friends with all my neighbors but I find this practice completely bizarre.
    - DeepSeaTortoise 3y ago
      Here in Buxtehofen, Bavaria, packages are left dangling from trees with a sign saying "I've hung up your rolex, so it wont be dragged of by boars while you're on vacation". And when you're back from hiking the Alps your neighbor will have build a shed around it to protect it from the rain and moved in 10 of his pigs to keep it warm. Unless of course your delivery guy tied your package to a special tree called Maibaum by mistake. Then you'll find a sign telling you that it has been redirected to one of the 5 villages called Kirchberg in your area.
      - bitwize 3y ago
        This is the best hackernews satire since n-gate stopped updating.
        dmd 3y ago
        god I miss n-gate.
      - pmarreck 3y ago
        Almost my entire extended family relatives live in (mostly) rural parts of Germany (including Bavaria) so thanks for this incredible laugh
    - WirelessGigabit 3y ago
      In Belgium the mail carrier is supposed to ring your doorbell and wait x time for you to open it and deliver the package to you. But instead they just put a piece of paper in your mailbox that says 'you weren't home, we'll come back tomorrow'. Next day same thing. Only then can you go and pick it up at the post office. Oh and there are many stories of people seeing the mail carrier defaulting to the piece of paper and not even knocking because of time pressure.
      - vladvasiliu 3y ago
        This is how it works with the French Post, with the exception that they never come back. Other providers do their own thing, and are more or less scrupulous. Some won't even bother to come over, they'll just say nobody was home and won't even leave a slip. Anecdotally, in France, the parcels "delivered by Amazon" have hands down the best service. They're the only ones who've ever actually delivered the parcel to my door (I live in an apartment). If they can't leave the parcel in the mailbox, they'll call me up and ask what to do, usually offering to come back some other day if I'm not at home.
- dpkirchner 3y ago
  In the US if a package is not left at the door you either have to wait an unknowable amount of time for another attempt, or you'd have to go to a facility to pick it up. It's difficult to figure out exactly where the facilities are and you're not guaranteed the package won't still be on the original truck or on a new one. The facilities may only be open during the day, while you're at work. Additionally, it's common that no delivery attempt is made at all -- the delivery driver will walk up to the door with a "we missed you we'll try again someday" slip already filled out and won't even knock. The main reason we are cool with deliveries being left on the porch isn't that we trust our neighbors, it's that the alternative is so much worse.
  - dingnuts 3y ago
    speak for yourself, I live in a large US suburb and I trust my neighbors. I grew up in a rural area and I trusted my neighbors when I lived in the urban core of a top 10 population US city, I still trusted my neighbors another comment said the US still had "remnants" of a high trust society. I grew up in that high trust society. I am not old. if our high trust society is gone, we should do whatever is necessary to get it back. It's clearly a better way to live.
    - dpkirchner 3y ago
      I didn't say high trust is gone (although it certainly is in some areas), I said the reason we are cool with packages being left on our porches is the alternative is inconvenient.
      - Mountain_Skies 3y ago
        Inconvenient and for much of the country, unnecessary. Even when living in the same county as Detroit (but not in the city limits), porch pirates weren't an issue.
    - fragmede 3y ago
      Even if you don't fully trust them, it's still just a better way to live - if you have the luxury. I left money - change from a grocery run on my coffee table, and then had some friends over. It's not the remnants of a high trust society that let me not worry about that money being out, but financial privilege. That the < $100 wasn't worth my time to worry about. If one of my visitors took some/any/all of it, I wouldn't have gone hungry. I might not even have noticed. Just thought, huh, that's weird, and gone about my day. Others I know don't have that luxury, and would go hungry if it was their money that had gone missing. They're much less trusting, because they have to be. If the latest shipment of crap from Amazon/Temu went missing. Annoying, but you'd just tell them the package got stolen and get a replacement sent out.
- jraph 3y ago
  > Here in France that would be unthinkable, too. Yeah, in a city I would expect the mail person to leave a receipt in your mailbox. In the countryside, though, that's not unheard of :-) Just like I would easily leave my bike unattended and unlocked in the country side but not in a city.
- phpisthebest 3y ago
  Here in the US, in many places, attempting to steal someones package off their porch will get you shot. Rightfully so. Places in the US that have high level of porch piracy also have high levels of gun control, and low levels of gun ownership. You have to really want my $5 towel to risk your life doing that around my parts of the US
- kelnos 3y ago
  > But the US still seems to have some remnants of a high trust society It varies greatly depending on where you live. My sister lives in suburban Maryland, and leaving a package outside on a porch is just no big deal. The probability that it gets stolen is actually ridiculously low. In this case the high trust is completely warranted. I live in San Francisco, and if a delivery person ever leaves a package outside, it's always a scramble to either get there to take it in, or find a neighbor who can do it for you. (I live in a 4-unit condo building, so we all try to look out for each other's packages when this happens.) It's just bizarre to me that delivery people aren't specifically instructed to never leave packages outside here. I suspect they may be, but they're overworked and don't want to have to add yet another package to their delivery schedule for the next day. And/or they may be evaluated on number of completed deliveries, no idea. (On the flip side, there are some neighborhoods in SF where it's ok for a package to sit on a doorstep for a while. Not many, but... they exist.)
sublimefire 3y ago
Local post office evolved in Ireland recently and started offering parcel boxes to be installed next to the door. There are 2 keys and one of them allows the post office worker to open the box and put the parcel in. This obvs does not work for other delivery companies but now you can see an option in the order forms to allow the delivery company leave the package at the door (e.g. IKEA). Otherwise, it is just unthinkable that someone would leave the package at the door without ringing you and agreeing in advance.
- closewith 3y ago
  The main function is to obscure whether a package has been left or not, since the master keys were available online before An Post starred selling the boxes. Some DPD drivers use them too. Physically, they're about as secure as an Amazon cardboard box.
  - rtkwe 3y ago
    A small level of friction can reduce a lot of issues though. Without being able to tell that a package has been delivered they have to break into or open random boxes and hope there's a package inside increasing the chances they're caught and wasting their time. It's the same kind of thing proof of work anti spam measures can work under, it adds a tiny friction to legitimate users but illegitimate users have to do tons of work to send their spam or in this case open a lot of boxes.
pmarreck 3y ago
> I find it odd that the standard policy is to leave packages unattended in any form in the first place. This is another one of those things that is not standard globally. Not sure what effect this has but I live in an area with a lot of Ring (or other) front door cameras which is a rather severe disincentive to theft of packages left at the door (as well as mishandling of package delivery by the driver)
AussieWog93 3y ago
First sentence was really surprising to me (Aussie), until you mentioned later that you're a Saffa. My in-laws took years to adjust after emigrating. To put things in perspective, it's common over here for people selling things on Facebook/Gumtree to just leave the item outside and have the buyer slide the cash under the doormat. It's less secure but way more convenient, since you don't need to be home to complete the transaction. I've left tools and other semi-valuables in my unsecured carport, in clear sight from the street, on a main road, for years now and they've never gone missing. My sister in law lost her iPhone in a public bathroom and got it back simply by calling it and working out a time and location to meet up with the person who found it. These aren't just freak anecdotes, by the way, they're the norm. You should really consider coming over here. We need more Saffas in Australia!
zaptheimpaler 3y ago
Its a huge pain though. You have to be home all day waiting for a package or the delivery drivers have to work evenings/nights only or you have to go somewhere to pick it up. Drop off is much better if there's no obstacles like access or theft.
mlrtime 3y ago
One of the nice things about living in a safe suburb, I can leave my door unlocked and packages out for 24+ hours and they are never stolen.

vladvasiliu 3y ago

Here in France that would be unthinkable, too. But the US still seems to have some remnants of a high trust society, which has been only a temporary thing in many places, if at all. Not having such a society adds frictions in all kind of interactions. In the end, that means cost. I can understand why people and company try to shift that cost when it comes up in areas where it wasn't present beforehand.

brabel 3y ago
Here in Sweden, you can agree to let the delivery company just leave the package by the front door, but it's only common for low value things. Most things are delivered to your nearest post office counter (usually in your closest supermarket) and recently, to a locked postbox nearby which you unlock online with their app.
- bravura 3y ago
  Here in Berlin Germany, packages are given to whichever neighbor in your apartment building happens to reply to the buzzer fastest, typically the ground floor ones. (Elevators are also uncommon.) I'm friends with all my neighbors but I find this practice completely bizarre.
  - DeepSeaTortoise 3y ago
    Here in Buxtehofen, Bavaria, packages are left dangling from trees with a sign saying "I've hung up your rolex, so it wont be dragged of by boars while you're on vacation". And when you're back from hiking the Alps your neighbor will have build a shed around it to protect it from the rain and moved in 10 of his pigs to keep it warm. Unless of course your delivery guy tied your package to a special tree called Maibaum by mistake. Then you'll find a sign telling you that it has been redirected to one of the 5 villages called Kirchberg in your area.
    - bitwize 3y ago
      This is the best hackernews satire since n-gate stopped updating.
      - dmd 3y ago
        god I miss n-gate.
    - pmarreck 3y ago
      Almost my entire extended family relatives live in (mostly) rural parts of Germany (including Bavaria) so thanks for this incredible laugh
  - WirelessGigabit 3y ago
    In Belgium the mail carrier is supposed to ring your doorbell and wait x time for you to open it and deliver the package to you. But instead they just put a piece of paper in your mailbox that says 'you weren't home, we'll come back tomorrow'. Next day same thing. Only then can you go and pick it up at the post office. Oh and there are many stories of people seeing the mail carrier defaulting to the piece of paper and not even knocking because of time pressure.
    - vladvasiliu 3y ago
      This is how it works with the French Post, with the exception that they never come back. Other providers do their own thing, and are more or less scrupulous. Some won't even bother to come over, they'll just say nobody was home and won't even leave a slip. Anecdotally, in France, the parcels "delivered by Amazon" have hands down the best service. They're the only ones who've ever actually delivered the parcel to my door (I live in an apartment). If they can't leave the parcel in the mailbox, they'll call me up and ask what to do, usually offering to come back some other day if I'm not at home.
dpkirchner 3y ago
In the US if a package is not left at the door you either have to wait an unknowable amount of time for another attempt, or you'd have to go to a facility to pick it up. It's difficult to figure out exactly where the facilities are and you're not guaranteed the package won't still be on the original truck or on a new one. The facilities may only be open during the day, while you're at work. Additionally, it's common that no delivery attempt is made at all -- the delivery driver will walk up to the door with a "we missed you we'll try again someday" slip already filled out and won't even knock. The main reason we are cool with deliveries being left on the porch isn't that we trust our neighbors, it's that the alternative is so much worse.
- dingnuts 3y ago
  speak for yourself, I live in a large US suburb and I trust my neighbors. I grew up in a rural area and I trusted my neighbors when I lived in the urban core of a top 10 population US city, I still trusted my neighbors another comment said the US still had "remnants" of a high trust society. I grew up in that high trust society. I am not old. if our high trust society is gone, we should do whatever is necessary to get it back. It's clearly a better way to live.
  - dpkirchner 3y ago
    I didn't say high trust is gone (although it certainly is in some areas), I said the reason we are cool with packages being left on our porches is the alternative is inconvenient.
    - Mountain_Skies 3y ago
      Inconvenient and for much of the country, unnecessary. Even when living in the same county as Detroit (but not in the city limits), porch pirates weren't an issue.
  - fragmede 3y ago
    Even if you don't fully trust them, it's still just a better way to live - if you have the luxury. I left money - change from a grocery run on my coffee table, and then had some friends over. It's not the remnants of a high trust society that let me not worry about that money being out, but financial privilege. That the < $100 wasn't worth my time to worry about. If one of my visitors took some/any/all of it, I wouldn't have gone hungry. I might not even have noticed. Just thought, huh, that's weird, and gone about my day. Others I know don't have that luxury, and would go hungry if it was their money that had gone missing. They're much less trusting, because they have to be. If the latest shipment of crap from Amazon/Temu went missing. Annoying, but you'd just tell them the package got stolen and get a replacement sent out.
jraph 3y ago
> Here in France that would be unthinkable, too. Yeah, in a city I would expect the mail person to leave a receipt in your mailbox. In the countryside, though, that's not unheard of :-) Just like I would easily leave my bike unattended and unlocked in the country side but not in a city.
phpisthebest 3y ago
Here in the US, in many places, attempting to steal someones package off their porch will get you shot. Rightfully so. Places in the US that have high level of porch piracy also have high levels of gun control, and low levels of gun ownership. You have to really want my $5 towel to risk your life doing that around my parts of the US
kelnos 3y ago
> But the US still seems to have some remnants of a high trust society It varies greatly depending on where you live. My sister lives in suburban Maryland, and leaving a package outside on a porch is just no big deal. The probability that it gets stolen is actually ridiculously low. In this case the high trust is completely warranted. I live in San Francisco, and if a delivery person ever leaves a package outside, it's always a scramble to either get there to take it in, or find a neighbor who can do it for you. (I live in a 4-unit condo building, so we all try to look out for each other's packages when this happens.) It's just bizarre to me that delivery people aren't specifically instructed to never leave packages outside here. I suspect they may be, but they're overworked and don't want to have to add yet another package to their delivery schedule for the next day. And/or they may be evaluated on number of completed deliveries, no idea. (On the flip side, there are some neighborhoods in SF where it's ok for a package to sit on a doorstep for a while. Not many, but... they exist.)

sublimefire 3y ago

Local post office evolved in Ireland recently and started offering parcel boxes to be installed next to the door. There are 2 keys and one of them allows the post office worker to open the box and put the parcel in. This obvs does not work for other delivery companies but now you can see an option in the order forms to allow the delivery company leave the package at the door (e.g. IKEA). Otherwise, it is just unthinkable that someone would leave the package at the door without ringing you and agreeing in advance.

closewith 3y ago
The main function is to obscure whether a package has been left or not, since the master keys were available online before An Post starred selling the boxes. Some DPD drivers use them too. Physically, they're about as secure as an Amazon cardboard box.
- rtkwe 3y ago
  A small level of friction can reduce a lot of issues though. Without being able to tell that a package has been delivered they have to break into or open random boxes and hope there's a package inside increasing the chances they're caught and wasting their time. It's the same kind of thing proof of work anti spam measures can work under, it adds a tiny friction to legitimate users but illegitimate users have to do tons of work to send their spam or in this case open a lot of boxes.

pmarreck 3y ago

> I find it odd that the standard policy is to leave packages unattended in any form in the first place. This is another one of those things that is not standard globally. Not sure what effect this has but I live in an area with a lot of Ring (or other) front door cameras which is a rather severe disincentive to theft of packages left at the door (as well as mishandling of package delivery by the driver)

AussieWog93 3y ago

First sentence was really surprising to me (Aussie), until you mentioned later that you're a Saffa. My in-laws took years to adjust after emigrating. To put things in perspective, it's common over here for people selling things on Facebook/Gumtree to just leave the item outside and have the buyer slide the cash under the doormat. It's less secure but way more convenient, since you don't need to be home to complete the transaction. I've left tools and other semi-valuables in my unsecured carport, in clear sight from the street, on a main road, for years now and they've never gone missing. My sister in law lost her iPhone in a public bathroom and got it back simply by calling it and working out a time and location to meet up with the person who found it. These aren't just freak anecdotes, by the way, they're the norm. You should really consider coming over here. We need more Saffas in Australia!

zaptheimpaler 3y ago

Its a huge pain though. You have to be home all day waiting for a package or the delivery drivers have to work evenings/nights only or you have to go somewhere to pick it up. Drop off is much better if there's no obstacles like access or theft.

mlrtime 3y ago

One of the nice things about living in a safe suburb, I can leave my door unlocked and packages out for 24+ hours and they are never stolen.