4 ms·

> microsoft could start shipping a fucking compiler Visual Studio is a free download. Most users are not developers. Waste of space to include it by default.

by xcv123 3y ago

> microsoft could start shipping a fucking compiler Visual Studio is a free download. Most users are not developers. Waste of space to include it by default. https://visualstudio.microsoft.com/vs/community/ https://visualstudio.microsoft.com/vs/community/

kragen 3y ago
that's a ridiculous excuse unix v7 included a compiler and was three megabytes https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/Research/Keith_Bostic_v7/ https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/Research/Keith_Bo... https://opensimh.org/research-unix-7-pdp11-45-v2.0.pdf https://opensimh.org/research-unix-7-pdp11-45-v2.0.pdf the compiler was a tiny fraction of that gcc 9 is about 50 megabytes windows 11 is over 8 gigabytes; you need a 16 gig usb drive to install it there are probably individual audio files included in windows that are bigger than gcc also, tho, this is a lot like not including life jackets on a ship because most passengers don't get shipwrecked
- xcv123 3y ago
  It's not an excuse. Visual Studio is multiple gigabytes. Yes they should make it smaller but unless that happens it would be stupid to include it by default. Waste of space.
  - kragen 3y ago
    they can ship a compiler that isn't a giant pile of shit then there are free ones
    - xcv123 3y ago
      You should get a job at Microsoft and fix it.
      - kragen 3y ago
        i'd sooner breakfast on goat vomit
    - pjmlp 3y ago
      A compiler without system libraries is useless. All of those little apt get install ....-dev to spend an afternoon on. Followed by installing Clion, QtCreator or KDE + KDevelop.
  - figomore 3y ago
    It's possible install only the components you want from Visual Studio. I chocolatey to install only the compiler and a component needed to compile Cython codes on Windows: ``` choco install -y visualstudio2019buildtools choco install -y visualstudio2019-workload-vctools ``` I this case it's installing Visual Studio 2019.
    - xcv123 3y ago
      If we're talking about base OS install then its a different story. Which options do they choose as default for all users? Are you suggesting that Microsoft create an OOTB setup perfectly custom tailored to this one tiny niche requirement to compile Python whatever? Even on Linux the OOTB setup is useless for my development. I always need to `apt install` all the compilers, frameworks, libraries, SDK's, utilities, etc, before its usable.
- samus 3y ago
  Most users will never need a compiler. If they need it, it's a download away. Life jackets are hopefully never needed, but when they are needed, the crew can't go to the warehouse and get them. Big difference.
  - kragen 3y ago
    it might be a download away, or it might be permanently unavailable
    - pjmlp 3y ago
      Which was the usual way things were on UNIX, thanks Sun, before GNU/Linux became relevant.
      - kragen 3y ago
        no, there was a brief period of time where sun decided to try to imitate microsoft in this stupidity, but fortunately none of the other unix vendors followed suit
        pjmlp 3y ago
        First of all, everyone else was doing the same outside UNIX in the 1980's. Secondly, Solaris, Aix, HP-UX, DG/UX were the same in what concerns having to buy a UNIX developers license for the compilers. So other UNIX vendors did follow suit, and I can't be bothered to dive into BYTE and DDJ ads from 1980 - 1990's to add others to the list.
        kragen 3y ago
        though i never bought one myself, i never saw an aix or irix box without compilers installed, and don't have any personal experience with hp-ux and dg/ux, but it was only for solaris that the fsf decided they had to put up precompiled gcc binaries on their ftp site because the vendor wasn't shipping one
    - 3y ago
- pjmlp 3y ago
  You are only looking at the compiler without standard library, and all the nice tools modern C and C++ developers have grown to enjoy since 1979. You should be comparing to a C compiler for MS-DOS. If you want to do a proper comparisation you should include GNU/Linux libraries for all major architectures already compiled, GUI frameworks, IDE, .NET, Python, node, Java SDK, Azure integration SDKs, device drivers,...
  - kragen 3y ago
    because of dynamic linking, the standard library is already included in microsoft windows, and all that other crap isn't needed to get blas and lapack to build
    - pjmlp 3y ago
      What standard library would that be?
      - kragen 3y ago
        beats me, i haven't had a microsoft windows box since 02000
        pjmlp 3y ago
        So you just like to rant, I see.
        kragen 3y ago
        yet somehow i was still correct: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38203731 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38203731
      - jasomill 3y ago
        Microsoft's Universal CRT, present by default in Windows 10, and installable on Windows 7 SP1 and later. Linking to UCRT using an entirely FOSS toolchain is, alas, nontrivial, but supported by mingw compilers (gcc and clang; no idea about the various FOSS Fortran compilers): https://mingwpy.github.io/ucrt.html https://mingwpy.github.io/ucrt.html
gary_0 3y ago
All you really need is cl.exe and friends, and the C/C++ headers, in some fixed directory path. (And, apparently, maybe a Fortran compiler?) That shouldn't take up that much space. And the last time I was forced to install Windows 10, it spent a few hundred megabytes of bandwidth and disk space on Candy Crush Soda Saga, not to mention a bunch of other junk I never asked for, so disk space is not that precious to Microsoft.
- xcv123 3y ago
  That simply won't work for most Windows development. Need all the frameworks, including .NET. At least tens of gigabytes. Full Visual Studio 2022 installation is 210 GB.
  - gary_0 3y ago
    Nobody's asking for .NET or an IDE. Just enough to build things like the aforementioned Python packages. Or am I missing your sarcasm?
    - xcv123 3y ago
      This is not sarcasm. You are asking for basic development capability in the base OS installation. Vast majority of Windows development uses .NET, or uses frameworks etc. The barebones C++ compiler and standard library simply won't work for most development on Windows, so what's the point? You are expecting base functionality to cater to your very niche specific needs which is practically useless for the vast majority of Windows development in general. There's no business case for it. Won't happen. Even on Linux I need to install a lot of headers and libraries and compilers and SDKs before it can be used for development. Ubuntu base install is practically useless for dev without `apt install <all the things>`.
  - kragen 3y ago
    you just need something you can compile them with

by xcv123 3y ago

kragen 3y ago

that's a ridiculous excuse unix v7 included a compiler and was three megabytes https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/Research/Keith_Bostic_v7/ https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/Research/Keith_Bo... https://opensimh.org/research-unix-7-pdp11-45-v2.0.pdf https://opensimh.org/research-unix-7-pdp11-45-v2.0.pdf the compiler was a tiny fraction of that gcc 9 is about 50 megabytes windows 11 is over 8 gigabytes; you need a 16 gig usb drive to install it there are probably individual audio files included in windows that are bigger than gcc also, tho, this is a lot like not including life jackets on a ship because most passengers don't get shipwrecked

xcv123 3y ago
It's not an excuse. Visual Studio is multiple gigabytes. Yes they should make it smaller but unless that happens it would be stupid to include it by default. Waste of space.
- kragen 3y ago
  they can ship a compiler that isn't a giant pile of shit then there are free ones
  - xcv123 3y ago
    You should get a job at Microsoft and fix it.
    - kragen 3y ago
      i'd sooner breakfast on goat vomit
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    A compiler without system libraries is useless. All of those little apt get install ....-dev to spend an afternoon on. Followed by installing Clion, QtCreator or KDE + KDevelop.
- figomore 3y ago
  It's possible install only the components you want from Visual Studio. I chocolatey to install only the compiler and a component needed to compile Cython codes on Windows: ``` choco install -y visualstudio2019buildtools choco install -y visualstudio2019-workload-vctools ``` I this case it's installing Visual Studio 2019.
  - xcv123 3y ago
    If we're talking about base OS install then its a different story. Which options do they choose as default for all users? Are you suggesting that Microsoft create an OOTB setup perfectly custom tailored to this one tiny niche requirement to compile Python whatever? Even on Linux the OOTB setup is useless for my development. I always need to `apt install` all the compilers, frameworks, libraries, SDK's, utilities, etc, before its usable.
samus 3y ago
Most users will never need a compiler. If they need it, it's a download away. Life jackets are hopefully never needed, but when they are needed, the crew can't go to the warehouse and get them. Big difference.
- kragen 3y ago
  it might be a download away, or it might be permanently unavailable
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    Which was the usual way things were on UNIX, thanks Sun, before GNU/Linux became relevant.
    - kragen 3y ago
      no, there was a brief period of time where sun decided to try to imitate microsoft in this stupidity, but fortunately none of the other unix vendors followed suit
      - pjmlp 3y ago
        First of all, everyone else was doing the same outside UNIX in the 1980's. Secondly, Solaris, Aix, HP-UX, DG/UX were the same in what concerns having to buy a UNIX developers license for the compilers. So other UNIX vendors did follow suit, and I can't be bothered to dive into BYTE and DDJ ads from 1980 - 1990's to add others to the list.
        kragen 3y ago
        though i never bought one myself, i never saw an aix or irix box without compilers installed, and don't have any personal experience with hp-ux and dg/ux, but it was only for solaris that the fsf decided they had to put up precompiled gcc binaries on their ftp site because the vendor wasn't shipping one
  - 3y ago
pjmlp 3y ago
You are only looking at the compiler without standard library, and all the nice tools modern C and C++ developers have grown to enjoy since 1979. You should be comparing to a C compiler for MS-DOS. If you want to do a proper comparisation you should include GNU/Linux libraries for all major architectures already compiled, GUI frameworks, IDE, .NET, Python, node, Java SDK, Azure integration SDKs, device drivers,...
- kragen 3y ago
  because of dynamic linking, the standard library is already included in microsoft windows, and all that other crap isn't needed to get blas and lapack to build
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    What standard library would that be?
    - kragen 3y ago
      beats me, i haven't had a microsoft windows box since 02000
      - pjmlp 3y ago
        So you just like to rant, I see.
        kragen 3y ago
        yet somehow i was still correct: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38203731 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38203731
    - jasomill 3y ago
      Microsoft's Universal CRT, present by default in Windows 10, and installable on Windows 7 SP1 and later. Linking to UCRT using an entirely FOSS toolchain is, alas, nontrivial, but supported by mingw compilers (gcc and clang; no idea about the various FOSS Fortran compilers): https://mingwpy.github.io/ucrt.html https://mingwpy.github.io/ucrt.html

gary_0 3y ago

All you really need is cl.exe and friends, and the C/C++ headers, in some fixed directory path. (And, apparently, maybe a Fortran compiler?) That shouldn't take up that much space. And the last time I was forced to install Windows 10, it spent a few hundred megabytes of bandwidth and disk space on Candy Crush Soda Saga, not to mention a bunch of other junk I never asked for, so disk space is not that precious to Microsoft.

xcv123 3y ago
That simply won't work for most Windows development. Need all the frameworks, including .NET. At least tens of gigabytes. Full Visual Studio 2022 installation is 210 GB.
- gary_0 3y ago
  Nobody's asking for .NET or an IDE. Just enough to build things like the aforementioned Python packages. Or am I missing your sarcasm?
  - xcv123 3y ago
    This is not sarcasm. You are asking for basic development capability in the base OS installation. Vast majority of Windows development uses .NET, or uses frameworks etc. The barebones C++ compiler and standard library simply won't work for most development on Windows, so what's the point? You are expecting base functionality to cater to your very niche specific needs which is practically useless for the vast majority of Windows development in general. There's no business case for it. Won't happen. Even on Linux I need to install a lot of headers and libraries and compilers and SDKs before it can be used for development. Ubuntu base install is practically useless for dev without `apt install <all the things>`.
- kragen 3y ago
  you just need something you can compile them with