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WSL2 is both convenient and is extremely well integrated. Microsoft did a really good job with it and VSCode. Also, in most cases for scientific computing, Mac

WSL2 is both convenient and is extremely well integrated. Microsoft did a really good job with it and VSCode. Also, in most cases for scientific computing, Mac users are using stuff like Remote SSH in VSCode to work directly on hardware that is running the code, which is pretty much always Linux. Generally, its kinda said that manpower is being wasted on getting things running in Windows or Mac by the software developers. It should be the other way around, have Microsoft or Apple dedicate manpower to port things over and make both systems conform to the Linux standard.

hurryer 3y ago
Let's try the same argument, the other way around: it's sad that Linux developers waste time developing the Linux desktop given that almost all usage of Linux is on the server. Linux developers should dedicate manpower to porting Linux desktop software to Windows/Mac which the vast majority of desktop users use. Now you see the problem with your argument?
- CoolCold 3y ago
  > it's sad that Linux developers waste time developing the Linux desktop Hey, that's unpopular statement on wanna-be hackers resources like HN or Reddit - people feel being creative using Linux on Desktop and feeling control over machine, famous System Administrator Of LocalHost experts ;)
- Too 3y ago
  For one, Linux is OSS, so contributions made there are available for anyone, forever. I don’t think voluntary developers are very keen on dedicating contributions to a business entity who by the next major release would have stolen your code and hidden it behind ads or some not so smart assistant that requires online connectivity all the time. Linux is also the common ground. If you have to choose ONE system, you would choose Linux. Otherwise you are going to need BOTH Mac and Windows, possibly even more. Just getting the hardware to test that would be a major setback for a small oss contributor. I don’t think you can consider scipy desktop software anyway. The IDE can by all means be, but just let it communicate to some deamon running in WSL, docker or remotely over a standard interface.
- ActorNightly 3y ago
  > Windows/Mac which the vast majority of desktop users use. Use for...what? Windows is primarily used for people who play games. Mac is used by people who want tech jewelry. Neither of which is related to development. And it would make more sense to develop on a platform that runs the same kernel as the servers. This is the reason why the whole WSL2 exists with VSCode integration. Microsoft quickly realized that if they want to compete in the cloud with Azure, they have to be Linux first.
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    And that is why so many developers buy Apple devices and code on macOS, and walk around with them on FOSDEM, because of the kernel.
    - ActorNightly 3y ago
      ... no, because its tech jewelry lol. That is literally the history of Apple. Or are we still going to pretend that a computer that you don't own, because Apple tells you what software you can and can't install on it, is somehow better for development?
      - pjmlp 3y ago
        It is a UNIX desktop that actually works, and doesn't need endless hours researching for hardware compatibility or custom kernel parameters. Android/Linux, ChromeOS/Linux, WebOS/Linux also work great for the same reasons. Other than that, better leave it on servers and embedded devices being a UNIX headless clone, with cloud and hardware vendors taking the trouble to keep it running.
        ActorNightly 3y ago
        >doesn't need endless hours researching for hardware compatibility or custom kernel parameters. Yeah so this is indicative of the fact that you don't really have ANY experience with modern Linux. You can take a well supported laptop and install Linux Mint on it and everything will just work, no tweaking required. Try it sometime before making 10 year old arguments that Mac users were making back in the day and apparently still do now. Furthermore, Id go even further and argue that as a developer, learning how to configure basic documented things should be something that you know and is fairly straightforward for you to to do, just like installing tooling you need for your development.
eviks 3y ago
What's so well integrated with atrocious IO speeds between boundaries?
- ActorNightly 3y ago
  I think you mistook this for reddit.
- mardifoufs 3y ago
  Wasn't that mostly on wsl1?
  - eviks 3y ago
    vice versa, wsl2 is the true VM that truly suffers https://vxlabs.com/2019/12/06/wsl2-io-measurements/ https://vxlabs.com/2019/12/06/wsl2-io-measurements/
- baq 3y ago
  not a problem if you don't cross them - my wsl2 disk image took more space than the windows install. I basically used windows as a web/email/chat client and a terminal to the real system, which was wsl2.
  - eviks 3y ago
    Bad integration is a problem with integration even if you personally do no integration
    - baq 3y ago
      To each their own. I consider it great at what it does. It has limitations but what doesn’t? It’s a tool, use it, or don’t - I use it, it works for me.
      - eviks 3y ago
        Good for you, but also irrelevant to the argument
walleeee 3y ago
> Also, in most cases for scientific computing, Mac users are using stuff like Remote SSH in VSCode to work directly on hardware that is running the code, which is pretty much always Linux. This might be true for extremely demanding tasks that need to run on a cluster or cloud but a surprisingly large amount of scientific computing is perfectly manageable (indeed much easier to manage) on a laptop, if there are compatible toolchains for the OS. That said, I would not be dissatisfied with a world in which Linux was the OS of choice for nearly everyone. Fully agree it would be great if research software developers could focus on the domain, distributions take a wildly disproportionate amount of effort

hurryer 3y ago

Let's try the same argument, the other way around: it's sad that Linux developers waste time developing the Linux desktop given that almost all usage of Linux is on the server. Linux developers should dedicate manpower to porting Linux desktop software to Windows/Mac which the vast majority of desktop users use. Now you see the problem with your argument?

CoolCold 3y ago
> it's sad that Linux developers waste time developing the Linux desktop Hey, that's unpopular statement on wanna-be hackers resources like HN or Reddit - people feel being creative using Linux on Desktop and feeling control over machine, famous System Administrator Of LocalHost experts ;)
Too 3y ago
For one, Linux is OSS, so contributions made there are available for anyone, forever. I don’t think voluntary developers are very keen on dedicating contributions to a business entity who by the next major release would have stolen your code and hidden it behind ads or some not so smart assistant that requires online connectivity all the time. Linux is also the common ground. If you have to choose ONE system, you would choose Linux. Otherwise you are going to need BOTH Mac and Windows, possibly even more. Just getting the hardware to test that would be a major setback for a small oss contributor. I don’t think you can consider scipy desktop software anyway. The IDE can by all means be, but just let it communicate to some deamon running in WSL, docker or remotely over a standard interface.
ActorNightly 3y ago
> Windows/Mac which the vast majority of desktop users use. Use for...what? Windows is primarily used for people who play games. Mac is used by people who want tech jewelry. Neither of which is related to development. And it would make more sense to develop on a platform that runs the same kernel as the servers. This is the reason why the whole WSL2 exists with VSCode integration. Microsoft quickly realized that if they want to compete in the cloud with Azure, they have to be Linux first.
- pjmlp 3y ago
  And that is why so many developers buy Apple devices and code on macOS, and walk around with them on FOSDEM, because of the kernel.
  - ActorNightly 3y ago
    ... no, because its tech jewelry lol. That is literally the history of Apple. Or are we still going to pretend that a computer that you don't own, because Apple tells you what software you can and can't install on it, is somehow better for development?
    - pjmlp 3y ago
      It is a UNIX desktop that actually works, and doesn't need endless hours researching for hardware compatibility or custom kernel parameters. Android/Linux, ChromeOS/Linux, WebOS/Linux also work great for the same reasons. Other than that, better leave it on servers and embedded devices being a UNIX headless clone, with cloud and hardware vendors taking the trouble to keep it running.
      - ActorNightly 3y ago
        >doesn't need endless hours researching for hardware compatibility or custom kernel parameters. Yeah so this is indicative of the fact that you don't really have ANY experience with modern Linux. You can take a well supported laptop and install Linux Mint on it and everything will just work, no tweaking required. Try it sometime before making 10 year old arguments that Mac users were making back in the day and apparently still do now. Furthermore, Id go even further and argue that as a developer, learning how to configure basic documented things should be something that you know and is fairly straightforward for you to to do, just like installing tooling you need for your development.

eviks 3y ago

What's so well integrated with atrocious IO speeds between boundaries?

ActorNightly 3y ago
I think you mistook this for reddit.
mardifoufs 3y ago
Wasn't that mostly on wsl1?
- eviks 3y ago
  vice versa, wsl2 is the true VM that truly suffers https://vxlabs.com/2019/12/06/wsl2-io-measurements/ https://vxlabs.com/2019/12/06/wsl2-io-measurements/
baq 3y ago
not a problem if you don't cross them - my wsl2 disk image took more space than the windows install. I basically used windows as a web/email/chat client and a terminal to the real system, which was wsl2.
- eviks 3y ago
  Bad integration is a problem with integration even if you personally do no integration
  - baq 3y ago
    To each their own. I consider it great at what it does. It has limitations but what doesn’t? It’s a tool, use it, or don’t - I use it, it works for me.
    - eviks 3y ago
      Good for you, but also irrelevant to the argument

walleeee 3y ago

> Also, in most cases for scientific computing, Mac users are using stuff like Remote SSH in VSCode to work directly on hardware that is running the code, which is pretty much always Linux. This might be true for extremely demanding tasks that need to run on a cluster or cloud but a surprisingly large amount of scientific computing is perfectly manageable (indeed much easier to manage) on a laptop, if there are compatible toolchains for the OS. That said, I would not be dissatisfied with a world in which Linux was the OS of choice for nearly everyone. Fully agree it would be great if research software developers could focus on the domain, distributions take a wildly disproportionate amount of effort