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There was a post on HN months back about testimony to Congress. I forget the details except for one graph. Clear and direct correlation between the rise in soci

by josho 3y ago

There was a post on HN months back about testimony to Congress. I forget the details except for one graph. Clear and direct correlation between the rise in social media and teen mental health issues. The number of teen girls that I’ve seen with cut marks is terrifying. The dramatic increase in mental health issues is shocking. I know with my kids social media has made every one of their challenging teenage moments more difficult.

eru 3y ago
> Clear and direct correlation between the rise in social media and teen mental health issues. Correlation does not prove causation.
- JellyBeanThief 3y ago
  That would be worth something in a debate, where truth is the goal. But this isn't a debate, this is a decision. The agent is Meta. The field is their products. The goal is reduced teen mental health issues. And the buck stops with Zuckerberg. "Correlation does not prove causation" alone is not an excuse to avoid an action. It is a principle that can be used to compare actions for how likely they are to achieve the goal, and so it must be combined with some other action and evidence that makes that other action appear more likely to work. Without that, then the action suggested by the correlation remains the action most likely to work, and so it must still be taken. If, for whatever reason, Zuckerberg doesn't want these changes to be made, then he needs to either dole out resources to gather the evidence he demands and which may free him from them, or he needs to implement some other action which may turn out to work. If he doles out the resources, and the evidence comes back and establishes causation, then he has to make the changes. It sucks for him, but the goal isn't to please Zuckerberg, it's to reduce teen mental health issues. If he doles out the resources, and the evidence comes back failing to establish causation, then that's convenient for him. But he still has to try something else, because the goal is reduced teen mental health issues and it has not been achieved. If he goes straight to implementing some other action, and it at least appears to work, then he doesn't have to make the changes he didn't want to make. That's great for him, and since teen mental health issues were reduced, he can put it behind him. If he goes straight to implementing some other action, and it doesn't work, then still has to try something else, because the goal is reduced teen mental health issues and it has not been achieved.
  - blackoil 3y ago
    Any evidence to support that other social network like Snapchat, TikTok, Twitter don't promote such behaviors, what about communication platforms like iMessage, Telegram, WhatsApp, SMS etc. Do we have evidence that smartphone is not net harmful for tweens, teens and adults in general. Why isn't govt doing large enough meta studies on it? Is it Meta empire or social media or smartphones or Internet itself is responsible for mental health issues? And why does buck stop with Zuckerberg, not parents, school, govt. Why do under 13 have a smartphone? Is the usage monitored? Should Govt bring legislations on how much phone can be used for social media/video games by a child? Should bullying be handled at local level instead of a Corp controlling all?
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - mlrtime 3y ago
      Completely agree, The buck stops with parents. Meta should keep the filters and actively develop more filters that users want and enjoy. It can also create resources for parents to better deal with the risks of social media, the two are not in conflict.
      - thrixton 3y ago
        For generations we’ve had this concern that technology leads to poor outcomes, Johnny just wastes his time watching TV/Gaming etc… Still, parents, due to various factors had to let their kids be kids, and fend for themselves. The kids didn’t seem to suffer massive mental health issues though, things pretty much worked out in the end. Fast forward, parents may be more overworked, or may be addicted to the same devices we’re discussing here, so things may be slightly worse, but we’re seeing massive mental health challenges (not solely as a result of insta etc…). Parents are ill equipped to cope with this from my experience, companies are weaponizing their apps to draw eyeballs with a level of competency never seen before, we have few defences, it needs to be on the co. / gov.
- wickedwiesel 3y ago
  Check out this research https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34901571 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34901571 It’s claiming exactly that: certain social media as a cause of mental health deterioration among teens especially girls
stickfigure 3y ago
Have you been fitted for an eye patch yet? https://pastafarians.org.au/pastafarianism/pirates-and-global-warming/ https://pastafarians.org.au/pastafarianism/pirates-and-globa... The number of women I know with cut marks is terrifying - but they grew up before Instagram and Facebook.
friend_and_foe 3y ago
Before social media we had rap music glorifying criminal activity, 16 and pregnant and other assorted reality TV, before that we had old MTV and metal music that glorified hedonism, before that we had girl magazines with "impossible beauty standards", the pressure to wear make up, before that we had the sexual revolution... It seems that for every generation there has been something corrupting it. The older people get their panties in a wad and the younger people become more self destructive. America just has a culture of pushing limits and often those limits were there for a reason. Chesterton's fence and all that. All this social upheaval and people aren't happy. So much progress and everyone seems to be more and more miserable. So what is the solution? Ban Instagram filters? Make self esteem our golden bull? Begin goose stepping? I don't think anyone knows, and we are all just looking for someone to blame.
- wickedwiesel 3y ago
  There is solid research out there suggesting that this is different. Large n, several years, multiple countries all pointing to all increase in tune with the advent of visual social media (Instagram, TikTok - not Facebook or WhatsApp). The time series analysis makes this not merely correlational. I point to my sibling post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38201807 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38201807 Visual social media like TikTok and instagram seem to be a different beast than TV, WhatsApp and other media.
  - friend_and_foe 3y ago
    Everything is a different beast than what came before it. Notice, I'm not saying the panty wringers were wrong about all the stuff that came before. I've come to terms with the fact that they were largely right. The corruption of each successive generation actually happened. What I'm saying is, it seems that this is just an artifact of culture rather than standalone negative impacts of new things. I don't know what to do with that information, but it is staring me in the face.

by josho 3y ago

eru 3y ago

> Clear and direct correlation between the rise in social media and teen mental health issues. Correlation does not prove causation.

JellyBeanThief 3y ago
That would be worth something in a debate, where truth is the goal. But this isn't a debate, this is a decision. The agent is Meta. The field is their products. The goal is reduced teen mental health issues. And the buck stops with Zuckerberg. "Correlation does not prove causation" alone is not an excuse to avoid an action. It is a principle that can be used to compare actions for how likely they are to achieve the goal, and so it must be combined with some other action and evidence that makes that other action appear more likely to work. Without that, then the action suggested by the correlation remains the action most likely to work, and so it must still be taken. If, for whatever reason, Zuckerberg doesn't want these changes to be made, then he needs to either dole out resources to gather the evidence he demands and which may free him from them, or he needs to implement some other action which may turn out to work. If he doles out the resources, and the evidence comes back and establishes causation, then he has to make the changes. It sucks for him, but the goal isn't to please Zuckerberg, it's to reduce teen mental health issues. If he doles out the resources, and the evidence comes back failing to establish causation, then that's convenient for him. But he still has to try something else, because the goal is reduced teen mental health issues and it has not been achieved. If he goes straight to implementing some other action, and it at least appears to work, then he doesn't have to make the changes he didn't want to make. That's great for him, and since teen mental health issues were reduced, he can put it behind him. If he goes straight to implementing some other action, and it doesn't work, then still has to try something else, because the goal is reduced teen mental health issues and it has not been achieved.
- blackoil 3y ago
  Any evidence to support that other social network like Snapchat, TikTok, Twitter don't promote such behaviors, what about communication platforms like iMessage, Telegram, WhatsApp, SMS etc. Do we have evidence that smartphone is not net harmful for tweens, teens and adults in general. Why isn't govt doing large enough meta studies on it? Is it Meta empire or social media or smartphones or Internet itself is responsible for mental health issues? And why does buck stop with Zuckerberg, not parents, school, govt. Why do under 13 have a smartphone? Is the usage monitored? Should Govt bring legislations on how much phone can be used for social media/video games by a child? Should bullying be handled at local level instead of a Corp controlling all?
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - mlrtime 3y ago
    Completely agree, The buck stops with parents. Meta should keep the filters and actively develop more filters that users want and enjoy. It can also create resources for parents to better deal with the risks of social media, the two are not in conflict.
    - thrixton 3y ago
      For generations we’ve had this concern that technology leads to poor outcomes, Johnny just wastes his time watching TV/Gaming etc… Still, parents, due to various factors had to let their kids be kids, and fend for themselves. The kids didn’t seem to suffer massive mental health issues though, things pretty much worked out in the end. Fast forward, parents may be more overworked, or may be addicted to the same devices we’re discussing here, so things may be slightly worse, but we’re seeing massive mental health challenges (not solely as a result of insta etc…). Parents are ill equipped to cope with this from my experience, companies are weaponizing their apps to draw eyeballs with a level of competency never seen before, we have few defences, it needs to be on the co. / gov.
wickedwiesel 3y ago
Check out this research https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34901571 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34901571 It’s claiming exactly that: certain social media as a cause of mental health deterioration among teens especially girls

stickfigure 3y ago

Have you been fitted for an eye patch yet? https://pastafarians.org.au/pastafarianism/pirates-and-global-warming/ https://pastafarians.org.au/pastafarianism/pirates-and-globa... The number of women I know with cut marks is terrifying - but they grew up before Instagram and Facebook.

friend_and_foe 3y ago

Before social media we had rap music glorifying criminal activity, 16 and pregnant and other assorted reality TV, before that we had old MTV and metal music that glorified hedonism, before that we had girl magazines with "impossible beauty standards", the pressure to wear make up, before that we had the sexual revolution... It seems that for every generation there has been something corrupting it. The older people get their panties in a wad and the younger people become more self destructive. America just has a culture of pushing limits and often those limits were there for a reason. Chesterton's fence and all that. All this social upheaval and people aren't happy. So much progress and everyone seems to be more and more miserable. So what is the solution? Ban Instagram filters? Make self esteem our golden bull? Begin goose stepping? I don't think anyone knows, and we are all just looking for someone to blame.

wickedwiesel 3y ago
There is solid research out there suggesting that this is different. Large n, several years, multiple countries all pointing to all increase in tune with the advent of visual social media (Instagram, TikTok - not Facebook or WhatsApp). The time series analysis makes this not merely correlational. I point to my sibling post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38201807 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38201807 Visual social media like TikTok and instagram seem to be a different beast than TV, WhatsApp and other media.
- friend_and_foe 3y ago
  Everything is a different beast than what came before it. Notice, I'm not saying the panty wringers were wrong about all the stuff that came before. I've come to terms with the fact that they were largely right. The corruption of each successive generation actually happened. What I'm saying is, it seems that this is just an artifact of culture rather than standalone negative impacts of new things. I don't know what to do with that information, but it is staring me in the face.