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That's fair, but if you'd gander a look at another comment of mine in this thread (the long one), I'm not sure what to do with that. This is a very utilitarian

That's fair, but if you'd gander a look at another comment of mine in this thread (the long one), I'm not sure what to do with that. This is a very utilitarian argument, and I suppose I need convincing that the benefits really do outweigh the cost, because we're about to gamble with child rape victims. I am aware of the purported benefits of decriminalizing certain kinds of CSAM, but utilitarian arguments are suspiciously silent on the subject of costs. Have you thought of any dangers in this approach, and how they can be avoided? I mean this in the gentlest way possible. I'm really trying to think this through, and would appreciate your input.

fsflover 3y ago
> I suppose I need convincing that the benefits really do outweigh the cost I suppose that the government needs to do the actual research first, and only then introduce new surveillance measures and prohibitions, not vice versa.
tremon 3y ago
that the benefits really do outweigh the cost So let's start by enumerating the cost of cartoons and comics depicting CSA (e.g. some hentai, which is usually ambiguous about age). Other than the cost of production and distribution which is the same as any other form of comics, I'm drawing a blank here.
- omginternets 3y ago
  Why are you focusing on cartoons instead of what’s actually troubling?
naasking 3y ago
> I am aware of the purported benefits of decriminalizing certain kinds of CSAM, but utilitarian arguments are suspiciously silent on the subject of costs. The reason they're suspiciously silent is because there is little to no evidence for the existence of such costs. The harms of CSAM with real children is clear as the victim is on camera, but who is victimized by animated CSAM? The allegation is that exposure to porn encourages deviant thoughts that eventually culminate in molestation. This is contradicted by lots of sex research in ordinary people and porn, and the small studies of child molesters suggests that it reduces recidivism too, like I said. So the situation we're in is that the government has banned something with little to no evidence of actual harm. It's the obscenity laws against porn all over again. Shouldn't the government ideally have to demonstrate actual harm before regulating behaviours? I understand the impulse to the precautionary principle, but it doesn't seem warranted here.
- omginternets 3y ago
  Meh, if you're not able to list even a single risk, then you clearly haven't thought of this very much. Surely you can imagine the harm of sharing the video of someone's rape? Don't you think we should try to avoid this for the sake of those who have already suffered?
  - naasking 3y ago
    > Surely you can imagine the harm of sharing the video of someone's rape? Clearly you didn't read my comment very carefully: > The harms of CSAM with real children is clear as the victim is on camera, but who is victimized by animated CSAM?
    - omginternets 3y ago
      I’m not taking about animated CSAM. It’s odd that you’d focus on that.
      - tremon 3y ago
        If you're not talking about animated CSAM, why did you reply to a post talking specifically about animated CSAM without indicating you were changing the topic?

fsflover 3y ago

> I suppose I need convincing that the benefits really do outweigh the cost I suppose that the government needs to do the actual research first, and only then introduce new surveillance measures and prohibitions, not vice versa.

tremon 3y ago

that the benefits really do outweigh the cost So let's start by enumerating the cost of cartoons and comics depicting CSA (e.g. some hentai, which is usually ambiguous about age). Other than the cost of production and distribution which is the same as any other form of comics, I'm drawing a blank here.

omginternets 3y ago
Why are you focusing on cartoons instead of what’s actually troubling?

naasking 3y ago

> I am aware of the purported benefits of decriminalizing certain kinds of CSAM, but utilitarian arguments are suspiciously silent on the subject of costs. The reason they're suspiciously silent is because there is little to no evidence for the existence of such costs. The harms of CSAM with real children is clear as the victim is on camera, but who is victimized by animated CSAM? The allegation is that exposure to porn encourages deviant thoughts that eventually culminate in molestation. This is contradicted by lots of sex research in ordinary people and porn, and the small studies of child molesters suggests that it reduces recidivism too, like I said. So the situation we're in is that the government has banned something with little to no evidence of actual harm. It's the obscenity laws against porn all over again. Shouldn't the government ideally have to demonstrate actual harm before regulating behaviours? I understand the impulse to the precautionary principle, but it doesn't seem warranted here.

omginternets 3y ago
Meh, if you're not able to list even a single risk, then you clearly haven't thought of this very much. Surely you can imagine the harm of sharing the video of someone's rape? Don't you think we should try to avoid this for the sake of those who have already suffered?
- naasking 3y ago
  > Surely you can imagine the harm of sharing the video of someone's rape? Clearly you didn't read my comment very carefully: > The harms of CSAM with real children is clear as the victim is on camera, but who is victimized by animated CSAM?
  - omginternets 3y ago
    I’m not taking about animated CSAM. It’s odd that you’d focus on that.
    - tremon 3y ago
      If you're not talking about animated CSAM, why did you reply to a post talking specifically about animated CSAM without indicating you were changing the topic?