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> Telegram was so well-planned from scratch Uhm what? It's 2023 and they still don't do e2e encryption by default. Building a chat application without e2ee is

> Telegram was so well-planned from scratch Uhm what? It's 2023 and they still don't do e2e encryption by default. Building a chat application without e2ee is orders of magnitude easier than with. And let's not talk about MTProto…

Barrin92 3y ago
because there's real usability tradeoffs. Signal's local encryption means there's no history sharing on new devices and essentially loss of the data should you ever lose the device/key, and that for many people is a deal breaker.
- leetcrew 3y ago
  I know only enough about crypto to be dangerous, but it's never been clear to me why that's such a hard technical limitation. my password manager is very easy to set up on a new device if I have another authenticated device on hand. if not, it's still not too onerous to set up the first sync. why wouldn't the same approach work for signal?
  - tapoxi 3y ago
    It does, if you set up Signal Desktop it involves scanning a QR code. It doesn't sync old messages, theoretically they could do that over a local network transfer.
  - jlokier 3y ago
    Indeed it's possible, though judging by the release dates, it's not trivial to do right: - Apple implemented iMessage E2EE sync across devices back in 2011. But be careful not to save your chat keys in iCloud backups (local backups are fine), unless you enable E2EE for iCloud backups as well, which is an option rolled out in 2023. - WhatsApp appears to have rolled out a form of E2EE device sync in 2023 as well. WhatsApp Web complicates the question of how secure is the E2EE though.
- wolverine876 3y ago
  > Signal's local encryption means there's no history sharing on new devices and essentially loss of the data should you ever lose the device/key To be clear, Signal now allows secure backups to the cloud. If you don't use a strong password, and much as the public won't, it's not perfect but they maximize the security. (And you can always choose to not use the backup.)
  - XorNot 3y ago
    Do they? On Android all it does is backup to another directory on my phone.
    - wolverine876 3y ago
      Hmmm ... looking around, isn't the following implemented? https://signal.org/blog/secure-value-recovery/ https://signal.org/blog/secure-value-recovery/ (It's also relevant to the OP.)
      - codethief 3y ago
        SVR doesn't do full backups (yet?)
  - newscracker 3y ago
    > To be clear, Signal now allows secure backups to the cloud. No, it doesn’t, at least on iOS. There is no backup option on iOS. The only way to retain information when using a new device is to have the old device close by and transfer it by running Signal on both of them. Anyone who loses their device or does not have it with them when getting and setting up a new device will lose all the messages from the older/previous device.
  - Moldoteck 3y ago
    Oh, does it work for desktop?
- anigbrowl 3y ago
  It doesn't help that the non-security aspects of Signal are garbage. I have several years of data in my phone that I want to backup, but it's a painful process because Ihave to export every media file manually and then transfer it over to an SD card. My phone is low on internal storage space, but Signal won't let you choose where exported media get saved to, so I have to play Towers of Hanoi shuttling media files in and out of my limited vacant space and then deleting them in Signal after they've been safely copied to the SD card. The app is full of tiny annoyances like this. For sending photos there are some editing/cropping tools - a fun and somewhat useful innovation, but while the crop handles work from the corners of an image they don't work properly from the sides. I was a busy evangelist for the product in its early days, now I hate using it.
Arnt 3y ago
You could reimplement all the rest in a couple of weekends, is that what you're trying to say? Only e2e is real work, the rest is easy?
- tapoxi 3y ago
  It's not just content inside messages, Signal actually knows nothing. The metadata about your user, your contacts, every group, and who is in a group, or who sent a message, all encrypted. The only thing Signal knows about a user is when they registered and their last login time. Telegram just stores everything on their servers in Dubai, in the clear.
  - thaumasiotes 3y ago
    > The only thing Signal knows about a user is when they registered and their last login time. Really? Why do I need to provide a phone number in order to register for the username test?
    - btreecat 3y ago
      Because your account is currently your phone number, so if they want to open the service to a limited number of power users, it makes sense to restrict it to folks who already are signal users, IMO.
      - thaumasiotes 3y ago
        You don't see any conflict between that and the claim "The only thing Signal knows about a user is when they registered and their last login time"?
        Nekit1234007 3y ago
        s/user/phone number/
        btreecat 3y ago
skinkestek 3y ago
There are different sides to security. Telegram openly does not have e2e by default. What it also didn't have that I think Signal at some point had was: - a bug that sent photos(?) to persons without you asking - a rather nasty vulnerability that let people send you a message and pwn your desktop environment For some reason a large subset of HN is like E2E or nothing. But I remind folks that except in very particular cases, all email is available to one email provider or the other. Same goes for banking etc. But for some reason according to HN my postcard level communication with my family demands I use a system with a tenth of the usability of Telegram.

Barrin92 3y ago

because there's real usability tradeoffs. Signal's local encryption means there's no history sharing on new devices and essentially loss of the data should you ever lose the device/key, and that for many people is a deal breaker.

leetcrew 3y ago
I know only enough about crypto to be dangerous, but it's never been clear to me why that's such a hard technical limitation. my password manager is very easy to set up on a new device if I have another authenticated device on hand. if not, it's still not too onerous to set up the first sync. why wouldn't the same approach work for signal?
- tapoxi 3y ago
  It does, if you set up Signal Desktop it involves scanning a QR code. It doesn't sync old messages, theoretically they could do that over a local network transfer.
- jlokier 3y ago
  Indeed it's possible, though judging by the release dates, it's not trivial to do right: - Apple implemented iMessage E2EE sync across devices back in 2011. But be careful not to save your chat keys in iCloud backups (local backups are fine), unless you enable E2EE for iCloud backups as well, which is an option rolled out in 2023. - WhatsApp appears to have rolled out a form of E2EE device sync in 2023 as well. WhatsApp Web complicates the question of how secure is the E2EE though.
wolverine876 3y ago
> Signal's local encryption means there's no history sharing on new devices and essentially loss of the data should you ever lose the device/key To be clear, Signal now allows secure backups to the cloud. If you don't use a strong password, and much as the public won't, it's not perfect but they maximize the security. (And you can always choose to not use the backup.)
- XorNot 3y ago
  Do they? On Android all it does is backup to another directory on my phone.
  - wolverine876 3y ago
    Hmmm ... looking around, isn't the following implemented? https://signal.org/blog/secure-value-recovery/ https://signal.org/blog/secure-value-recovery/ (It's also relevant to the OP.)
    - codethief 3y ago
      SVR doesn't do full backups (yet?)
- newscracker 3y ago
  > To be clear, Signal now allows secure backups to the cloud. No, it doesn’t, at least on iOS. There is no backup option on iOS. The only way to retain information when using a new device is to have the old device close by and transfer it by running Signal on both of them. Anyone who loses their device or does not have it with them when getting and setting up a new device will lose all the messages from the older/previous device.
- Moldoteck 3y ago
  Oh, does it work for desktop?
anigbrowl 3y ago
It doesn't help that the non-security aspects of Signal are garbage. I have several years of data in my phone that I want to backup, but it's a painful process because Ihave to export every media file manually and then transfer it over to an SD card. My phone is low on internal storage space, but Signal won't let you choose where exported media get saved to, so I have to play Towers of Hanoi shuttling media files in and out of my limited vacant space and then deleting them in Signal after they've been safely copied to the SD card. The app is full of tiny annoyances like this. For sending photos there are some editing/cropping tools - a fun and somewhat useful innovation, but while the crop handles work from the corners of an image they don't work properly from the sides. I was a busy evangelist for the product in its early days, now I hate using it.

Arnt 3y ago

You could reimplement all the rest in a couple of weekends, is that what you're trying to say? Only e2e is real work, the rest is easy?

tapoxi 3y ago
It's not just content inside messages, Signal actually knows nothing. The metadata about your user, your contacts, every group, and who is in a group, or who sent a message, all encrypted. The only thing Signal knows about a user is when they registered and their last login time. Telegram just stores everything on their servers in Dubai, in the clear.
- thaumasiotes 3y ago
  > The only thing Signal knows about a user is when they registered and their last login time. Really? Why do I need to provide a phone number in order to register for the username test?
  - btreecat 3y ago
    Because your account is currently your phone number, so if they want to open the service to a limited number of power users, it makes sense to restrict it to folks who already are signal users, IMO.
    - thaumasiotes 3y ago
      You don't see any conflict between that and the claim "The only thing Signal knows about a user is when they registered and their last login time"?
      - Nekit1234007 3y ago
        s/user/phone number/
      - btreecat 3y ago

skinkestek 3y ago

There are different sides to security. Telegram openly does not have e2e by default. What it also didn't have that I think Signal at some point had was: - a bug that sent photos(?) to persons without you asking - a rather nasty vulnerability that let people send you a message and pwn your desktop environment For some reason a large subset of HN is like E2E or nothing. But I remind folks that except in very particular cases, all email is available to one email provider or the other. Same goes for banking etc. But for some reason according to HN my postcard level communication with my family demands I use a system with a tenth of the usability of Telegram.