6 ms·

That's nice, but all of those features, such as usernames, make me understand how Telegram was so well-planned from scratch. Everybody has been catching up sinc

by kome 3y ago

That's nice, but all of those features, such as usernames, make me understand how Telegram was so well-planned from scratch. Everybody has been catching up since. Telegram is really an impressive piece of software.

khimaros 3y ago
last i checked, Telegram was not end-to-end encrypted by default. has this changed?
- jacooper 3y ago
  Nope.
- om154 3y ago
  Telegram at least offers end-to-end encrypted “Secret Chats”
  - Moldoteck 3y ago
    These are worse compared to signal chats. In signal, after login on say phone+ desktop, you'll have access to messages in secret chats on both devices(wish it would sync even if login on second device was later), on tg you are limited to only one
- tomtheelder 3y ago
  HN doesn’t like hearing this, but e2e encryption is kind of an anti-feature for the vast majority of users. The usability tradeoff is real, and most folks don’t care at all about the privacy/security side.
  - Moldoteck 3y ago
    Thing is, both can be achieved, but tg doesn't want to implement e2ee by default and signal doesn't want to implement a proper sync mechanism bc of some extra security(imo it's bs, extra security can be achieved with a proper implementation)
alwayslikethis 3y ago
I agree that Telegram is an impressive piece of software, but it does not offer E2EE by default and the encryption model has been criticized in the past. Still, it is the best chat app in wide use anywhere in the world and this is a great achievement. Among other things, the client is open source and they don't ban unofficial clients, and they don't restrict you to a certain number of devices like some much worse apps. The channels is also a nice innovation, and Telegram has seemingly remained reasonably unwilling to comply on government encroachment (used by both sides in the Russo-Ukrainian war without too much suspicion). This is probably as well as a centralized chat app can ever do.
- jlokier 3y ago
  I wouldn't say it doesn't offer E2EE by default. It offers private chats, which are E2EE, right there and almost as easy to initiate as the regular chats. I used Telegram in E2EE mode with someone initially, but later we decided the multi-device sync and web chat were so much more useful to us, it trumped the desirability of E2EE and we switched. Those features together would be better of course.
  - newscracker 3y ago
    Apps like Signal and Wire have shown that multi-device E2EE is possible with messages synced across. While I believe that Telegram is far ahead on a lot of features, the lack of multi-device sync for “secret chats” is mainly because Telegram hasn’t spent enough time or effort on it.
- 1ark 3y ago
  I was looking into (toying with) making a decentralized version of TDlib. Of course a lot of effort, but possible. Telegram has some of the best clients, and FOSS. Forking those with a new TDlib would be "best" of both worlds. Session did something similar with Signal clients as a base.
codethief 3y ago
> Telegram was so well-planned from scratch Uhm what? It's 2023 and they still don't do e2e encryption by default. Building a chat application without e2ee is orders of magnitude easier than with. And let's not talk about MTProto…
- Barrin92 3y ago
  because there's real usability tradeoffs. Signal's local encryption means there's no history sharing on new devices and essentially loss of the data should you ever lose the device/key, and that for many people is a deal breaker.
  - leetcrew 3y ago
    I know only enough about crypto to be dangerous, but it's never been clear to me why that's such a hard technical limitation. my password manager is very easy to set up on a new device if I have another authenticated device on hand. if not, it's still not too onerous to set up the first sync. why wouldn't the same approach work for signal?
    - tapoxi 3y ago
      It does, if you set up Signal Desktop it involves scanning a QR code. It doesn't sync old messages, theoretically they could do that over a local network transfer.
    - jlokier 3y ago
      Indeed it's possible, though judging by the release dates, it's not trivial to do right: - Apple implemented iMessage E2EE sync across devices back in 2011. But be careful not to save your chat keys in iCloud backups (local backups are fine), unless you enable E2EE for iCloud backups as well, which is an option rolled out in 2023. - WhatsApp appears to have rolled out a form of E2EE device sync in 2023 as well. WhatsApp Web complicates the question of how secure is the E2EE though.
  - wolverine876 3y ago
    > Signal's local encryption means there's no history sharing on new devices and essentially loss of the data should you ever lose the device/key To be clear, Signal now allows secure backups to the cloud. If you don't use a strong password, and much as the public won't, it's not perfect but they maximize the security. (And you can always choose to not use the backup.)
chatmasta 3y ago
My favorite feature of Telegram is that the default onboarding experience uploads your entire contact list to a server in Russia.
- 1ark 3y ago
  Telegram servers are hosted worldwide, mainly US and EU. With HQ in Dubai.
  - robertjglick 3y ago
    They still be shaddy, for example being persecuted by a government for your Faith. They turn over all your Contacts and ip addresses of your contacts so now all your friends can be persecuted... Substitute faith for: whatever...
    - 1ark 3y ago
      Are these statements verifiable? Honestly interested to learn more about every argument against Telegram.
      - robertjglick 3y ago
        https://archive.is/oNfNo https://archive.is/oNfNo https://archive.is/uE4ed https://archive.is/uE4ed I won't give specific since I use my real name.
  - OfSanguineFire 3y ago
    Telegram's "headquarters in Dubai" is just a legal fiction, a registered address only. A journalist who visited that supposed headquarters found no one at home.
    - 1ark 3y ago
      Fine. But where is the truth in that it is sent to Russian servers? Perfectly open to any evidence.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

by kome 3y ago

khimaros 3y ago

last i checked, Telegram was not end-to-end encrypted by default. has this changed?

jacooper 3y ago
Nope.
om154 3y ago
Telegram at least offers end-to-end encrypted “Secret Chats”
- Moldoteck 3y ago
  These are worse compared to signal chats. In signal, after login on say phone+ desktop, you'll have access to messages in secret chats on both devices(wish it would sync even if login on second device was later), on tg you are limited to only one
tomtheelder 3y ago
HN doesn’t like hearing this, but e2e encryption is kind of an anti-feature for the vast majority of users. The usability tradeoff is real, and most folks don’t care at all about the privacy/security side.
- Moldoteck 3y ago
  Thing is, both can be achieved, but tg doesn't want to implement e2ee by default and signal doesn't want to implement a proper sync mechanism bc of some extra security(imo it's bs, extra security can be achieved with a proper implementation)

alwayslikethis 3y ago

I agree that Telegram is an impressive piece of software, but it does not offer E2EE by default and the encryption model has been criticized in the past. Still, it is the best chat app in wide use anywhere in the world and this is a great achievement. Among other things, the client is open source and they don't ban unofficial clients, and they don't restrict you to a certain number of devices like some much worse apps. The channels is also a nice innovation, and Telegram has seemingly remained reasonably unwilling to comply on government encroachment (used by both sides in the Russo-Ukrainian war without too much suspicion). This is probably as well as a centralized chat app can ever do.

jlokier 3y ago
I wouldn't say it doesn't offer E2EE by default. It offers private chats, which are E2EE, right there and almost as easy to initiate as the regular chats. I used Telegram in E2EE mode with someone initially, but later we decided the multi-device sync and web chat were so much more useful to us, it trumped the desirability of E2EE and we switched. Those features together would be better of course.
- newscracker 3y ago
  Apps like Signal and Wire have shown that multi-device E2EE is possible with messages synced across. While I believe that Telegram is far ahead on a lot of features, the lack of multi-device sync for “secret chats” is mainly because Telegram hasn’t spent enough time or effort on it.
1ark 3y ago
I was looking into (toying with) making a decentralized version of TDlib. Of course a lot of effort, but possible. Telegram has some of the best clients, and FOSS. Forking those with a new TDlib would be "best" of both worlds. Session did something similar with Signal clients as a base.

codethief 3y ago

> Telegram was so well-planned from scratch Uhm what? It's 2023 and they still don't do e2e encryption by default. Building a chat application without e2ee is orders of magnitude easier than with. And let's not talk about MTProto…

Barrin92 3y ago
because there's real usability tradeoffs. Signal's local encryption means there's no history sharing on new devices and essentially loss of the data should you ever lose the device/key, and that for many people is a deal breaker.
- leetcrew 3y ago
  I know only enough about crypto to be dangerous, but it's never been clear to me why that's such a hard technical limitation. my password manager is very easy to set up on a new device if I have another authenticated device on hand. if not, it's still not too onerous to set up the first sync. why wouldn't the same approach work for signal?
  - tapoxi 3y ago
    It does, if you set up Signal Desktop it involves scanning a QR code. It doesn't sync old messages, theoretically they could do that over a local network transfer.
  - jlokier 3y ago
    Indeed it's possible, though judging by the release dates, it's not trivial to do right: - Apple implemented iMessage E2EE sync across devices back in 2011. But be careful not to save your chat keys in iCloud backups (local backups are fine), unless you enable E2EE for iCloud backups as well, which is an option rolled out in 2023. - WhatsApp appears to have rolled out a form of E2EE device sync in 2023 as well. WhatsApp Web complicates the question of how secure is the E2EE though.
- wolverine876 3y ago
  > Signal's local encryption means there's no history sharing on new devices and essentially loss of the data should you ever lose the device/key To be clear, Signal now allows secure backups to the cloud. If you don't use a strong password, and much as the public won't, it's not perfect but they maximize the security. (And you can always choose to not use the backup.)

chatmasta 3y ago

My favorite feature of Telegram is that the default onboarding experience uploads your entire contact list to a server in Russia.

1ark 3y ago
Telegram servers are hosted worldwide, mainly US and EU. With HQ in Dubai.
- robertjglick 3y ago
  They still be shaddy, for example being persecuted by a government for your Faith. They turn over all your Contacts and ip addresses of your contacts so now all your friends can be persecuted... Substitute faith for: whatever...
  - 1ark 3y ago
    Are these statements verifiable? Honestly interested to learn more about every argument against Telegram.
    - robertjglick 3y ago
      https://archive.is/oNfNo https://archive.is/oNfNo https://archive.is/uE4ed https://archive.is/uE4ed I won't give specific since I use my real name.
- OfSanguineFire 3y ago
  Telegram's "headquarters in Dubai" is just a legal fiction, a registered address only. A journalist who visited that supposed headquarters found no one at home.
  - 1ark 3y ago
    Fine. But where is the truth in that it is sent to Russian servers? Perfectly open to any evidence.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]