4 ms·

send and receive money globally without any intermediary?

lern_too_spel 3y ago
So by breaking the law.
pavlov 3y ago
Let's say I want to send money from New York to Rome. How does crypto enable me sending USD and the receiver getting EUR without any intermediaries? You need exchanges to do anything useful in crypto. And as we've seen most recently in the FTX case, all the exchanges are wretched hives of scum and villainy.
- damon_c 3y ago
  > all the exchanges Not really. There are plenty of decentralized exchanges which are proven, reliable, auditable, generally used by many without issues. see: https://uniswap.org https://uniswap.org https://curve.fi/ https://curve.fi/ https://1inch.io https://1inch.io It's the centralized exchanges, which are more akin to traditional financial institutions whose records are not on a publicly visible blockchain but rather private databases or... apparently spreadsheets... which fall victim to the same issues we have seen in the past in the traditional financial world.
  - pavlov 3y ago
    So how do I send USD to Uniswap, and how does my friend in Rome get EUR out of 1inch.io? If that's not possible, it's useless for the proposed use case: "send and receive money globally without any intermediary".
    - jejeyyy77 3y ago
      So how do I send gold to Chase, and how does my friend in Rome get receive a wire transfer in EUR?
    - immibis 3y ago
      Isn't that a bit like asking how I can send bitcoin with SEPA?
      - immibis 3y ago
        and since I can't send bitcoin with SEPA, obviously SEPA must suck.
  - epolanski 3y ago
    They don't work. You can always charge back a transfer.
  - zirgs 3y ago
    So you need at least 2 middlemen. One exchange where you buy crypto and another exchange where your friend sells that crypto. Or you could simply use a traditional wire transfer and currency would be converted automatically. USA and Italy exchange millions of dollars every day - it's nothing special.
    - jejeyyy77 3y ago
      To actually get the money to the other person via wire transfer is actually quite a process (having done many myself). - You will need to get permission from your bank to send international wire transfers (sign forms/agreements). - takes a long time (in the order of days) - expensive (~$50-$75 for outgoing international wire, and $25-$50 to receive it).
      - zirgs 3y ago
        I guess that depends on source and destination countries, because I am able to wire money between different EU countries without any special paperwork. It is no different to domestic transfers or transfers to the same bank. Why would I want to use crypto for that purpose? It seems more inconvenient and risky. I remember that in the beginning people were dreaming about self-contained crypto economy where exchanges would not be needed - that didn't really work out.
      - ygjb 3y ago
        The forms, delays, and fees are because what those financial institutions are doing is providing checks and balances, and de-risking, to the extent they can, performing that transfer. The forms are for KYC activity, and agreements on what the limitations of liability are. The delays are to validate that the transfers are handled and secured, and ideally can't be charged back. The fees are to cover the costs of the people who do the work for that. It's not perfect, but it's quite a bit better than the checks and balances that exist for folks who get hit by a scam and are convinced to go to a crypto kiosk and pay a scammer because they have been frightened by a threat to a loved one, or are taken in by a scammer about services being cut off, or desperately paying off a ransomware demand in the hopes that your business or personal records won't be leaked or published.
- jejeyyy77 3y ago
  You realize FTX isn't the only, or even largest, exchange right? If I want to send someone money, I can send anyone in the world BTC securely and instantly without any intermediary. If other party wants to convert to fiat then they can do so through an exchange, of which there are many.
- immibis 3y ago
  It doesn't, but if you and the recipient both have bitcoin wallets, you might decide to send bitcoin instead of USD or EUR.
AnimalMuppet 3y ago
Do you think "average everyday people" actually do that?
kubiton 3y ago
The intermediate is either a trust system in the real world, escrow service at dark net drug pages or the miner.or the traider who traides your fiat to crypto.
- jejeyyy77 3y ago
  lol, coinbase and binance are deca-billion dollar companies my guy
  - pavlov 3y ago
    Coinbase is heading for bankruptcy and Binance is a criminal operation. FTX was also a $32B company until it wasn’t.
    - jejeyyy77 3y ago
      you've got a money printer then - screenshot your short positions and I'll believe you ;)
      - pavlov 3y ago
        I made a bit of money on Coinbase puts in the past two years. But they’re pretty expensive, so I don’t have a position now. It’s not a money printer when everybody else also thinks it’s going down.
        DonHopkins 3y ago
        Good points, both that it's going down, and everybody knows it.
  - asadotzler 3y ago
    So was FTX
  - kubiton 3y ago
    Lol, read the news, my dude: Binance has let go 1000 people in summer and just again 100 in Sept.

So by breaking the law.

Let's say I want to send money from New York to Rome. How does crypto enable me sending USD and the receiver getting EUR without any intermediaries? You need exchanges to do anything useful in crypto. And as we've seen most recently in the FTX case, all the exchanges are wretched hives of scum and villainy.

damon_c 3y ago
> all the exchanges Not really. There are plenty of decentralized exchanges which are proven, reliable, auditable, generally used by many without issues. see: https://uniswap.org https://uniswap.org https://curve.fi/ https://curve.fi/ https://1inch.io https://1inch.io It's the centralized exchanges, which are more akin to traditional financial institutions whose records are not on a publicly visible blockchain but rather private databases or... apparently spreadsheets... which fall victim to the same issues we have seen in the past in the traditional financial world.
- pavlov 3y ago
  So how do I send USD to Uniswap, and how does my friend in Rome get EUR out of 1inch.io? If that's not possible, it's useless for the proposed use case: "send and receive money globally without any intermediary".
  - jejeyyy77 3y ago
    So how do I send gold to Chase, and how does my friend in Rome get receive a wire transfer in EUR?
  - immibis 3y ago
    Isn't that a bit like asking how I can send bitcoin with SEPA?
    - immibis 3y ago
      and since I can't send bitcoin with SEPA, obviously SEPA must suck.
- epolanski 3y ago
  They don't work. You can always charge back a transfer.
- zirgs 3y ago
  So you need at least 2 middlemen. One exchange where you buy crypto and another exchange where your friend sells that crypto. Or you could simply use a traditional wire transfer and currency would be converted automatically. USA and Italy exchange millions of dollars every day - it's nothing special.
  - jejeyyy77 3y ago
    To actually get the money to the other person via wire transfer is actually quite a process (having done many myself). - You will need to get permission from your bank to send international wire transfers (sign forms/agreements). - takes a long time (in the order of days) - expensive (~$50-$75 for outgoing international wire, and $25-$50 to receive it).
    - zirgs 3y ago
      I guess that depends on source and destination countries, because I am able to wire money between different EU countries without any special paperwork. It is no different to domestic transfers or transfers to the same bank. Why would I want to use crypto for that purpose? It seems more inconvenient and risky. I remember that in the beginning people were dreaming about self-contained crypto economy where exchanges would not be needed - that didn't really work out.
    - ygjb 3y ago
      The forms, delays, and fees are because what those financial institutions are doing is providing checks and balances, and de-risking, to the extent they can, performing that transfer. The forms are for KYC activity, and agreements on what the limitations of liability are. The delays are to validate that the transfers are handled and secured, and ideally can't be charged back. The fees are to cover the costs of the people who do the work for that. It's not perfect, but it's quite a bit better than the checks and balances that exist for folks who get hit by a scam and are convinced to go to a crypto kiosk and pay a scammer because they have been frightened by a threat to a loved one, or are taken in by a scammer about services being cut off, or desperately paying off a ransomware demand in the hopes that your business or personal records won't be leaked or published.
jejeyyy77 3y ago
You realize FTX isn't the only, or even largest, exchange right? If I want to send someone money, I can send anyone in the world BTC securely and instantly without any intermediary. If other party wants to convert to fiat then they can do so through an exchange, of which there are many.
immibis 3y ago
It doesn't, but if you and the recipient both have bitcoin wallets, you might decide to send bitcoin instead of USD or EUR.

AnimalMuppet 3y ago

Do you think "average everyday people" actually do that?

kubiton 3y ago

The intermediate is either a trust system in the real world, escrow service at dark net drug pages or the miner.or the traider who traides your fiat to crypto.

jejeyyy77 3y ago
lol, coinbase and binance are deca-billion dollar companies my guy
- pavlov 3y ago
  Coinbase is heading for bankruptcy and Binance is a criminal operation. FTX was also a $32B company until it wasn’t.
  - jejeyyy77 3y ago
    you've got a money printer then - screenshot your short positions and I'll believe you ;)
    - pavlov 3y ago
      I made a bit of money on Coinbase puts in the past two years. But they’re pretty expensive, so I don’t have a position now. It’s not a money printer when everybody else also thinks it’s going down.
      - DonHopkins 3y ago
        Good points, both that it's going down, and everybody knows it.
- asadotzler 3y ago
  So was FTX
- kubiton 3y ago
  Lol, read the news, my dude: Binance has let go 1000 people in summer and just again 100 in Sept.