5 ms·

Why does Hamas feel the need to stage so much of it then?

hotdogscout 3y ago
Israel is much less sadistic in their killing methods than Palestine (read torture and mutilation). One hypothesis is they're trying to convince people otherwise. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Hamas_attack_on_Israel https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Hamas_attack_on_Israel
- theossuary 3y ago
  As apposed to being buried under ruble for days slowly dying of dehydration while dealing with the excruciating pain of your injuries? Honestly think I'd rather die by Hamas' hands if I had a choice.
  - hotdogscout 3y ago
    I wouldn't. Seeing my family tortured in front of me? I'd take the ruble of concrete.
  - emptyfile 3y ago
    Raped to death? Burned alive?
- giraffe_lady 3y ago
  You can only think this because their methods are our methods. Bringing buildings down around children letting them die by the thousands of dehydration and inadequate medical care while the survivors watch is as horrific as anything could be.
- megous 3y ago
  Yeah? Go to dead_terrorists on telegram and read some comments there, if you want to see Israel's sadism.
- dragonwriter 3y ago
  Israel is not exactly known for eschewing the use of torture, historically or currently. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/11/israel-opt-horrifying-cases-of-torture-and-degrading-treatment-of-palestinian-detainees-amid-spike-in-arbitrary-arrests/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/11/israel-opt-ho...
  - hotdogscout 3y ago
    The documentation linked for torture on that press release (SUMMARY OF VIOLATIONS OF THE CONVENTION AGAINST TORTURE) says: "Most frequently such torture or other ill-treatment takes the form of beatings: many detainees have described being beaten with gun butts immediately after arrest and then thrown on the floor of a jeep, where they lie during the journey under the boots of soldiers. It may also involve the use of dogs in an aggressive manner, painful shackling (if related to an arrest) or humiliating or degrading treatment." Having been to Brazilian prison (and being under Brazil's jurisdiction) I wouldn't classify this as torture, otherwise my brother was also tortured when arrested for drug trafficking. I wouldn't say this type of violence is as shocking as Hamas is, too.
    - dragonwriter 3y ago
      > Having been to Brazilian prison I wouldn't classify this as torture, otherwise my brother was also tortured when arrested for drug trafficking. So, either Israel doesn't torture or someone in prison for drug trafficking in a system in which torture is a well-known (and apparently, from polling, widely publicly accepted!) systemic feature of the law enforcement and prison system [0] was tortured? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture_in_Brazil https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture_in_Brazil
      - hotdogscout 3y ago
        I think there's a difference between mutilating someone's limbs and hitting them with the back of a gun and UN's definition doesn't accurately describe that difference.
- bjourne 3y ago
  I'm not so sure about that. https://electronicintifada.net/content/israelis-filmed-abusing-bodies-palestinian-fighters/39731 https://electronicintifada.net/content/israelis-filmed-abusi...
  - hotdogscout 3y ago
    I said "Israel is much less sadistic in their killing methods", none of these videos address my claim. They're either dead terrorists/fighters being defiled or not being killed.
kmeisthax 3y ago
Hamas's primary reason of existence is propaganda. Actually, two different kinds: - Direct propaganda to the Palestinian people that peace with Israel is practically impossible and morally indefensible, and that the only option is to kill millions of Israelis in the name of Palestinian living space - Indirect propaganda to the Israeli people that peace with Palestine is practically impossible and morally indefensible, and that the only option is to oppress millions of Palestinians in the name of Jewish living space That last one is going to not make sense, except in a "butterflies and flowers[0]" sense... until you remember that Israel directly funded Hamas specifically to discredit more liberal and secular Palestinian independence movements that might[1] have actually been willing to settle for a two-state solution with a few land swaps and concessions. The reasoning for why they'd fund their own violent opposition is outside the scope of this comment[2], you just need to know that it happened. Once you understand that Hamas exists primarily to propagandize against Israel, the staging makes sense. I mean, actual death and destruction is a stimulus that provokes pain and anguish, but why stop at what's real? Supernormal stimuli provoke supernormal responses. In other words, Hamas is a violence porn and snuff film factory masquerading as a guerilla warfare unit. In other, other words, they're terrorists. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3j_RHkqJc&t=240s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3j_RHkqJc&t=240s [1] Ok, I don't actually know if this counterfactual would have held, had Benjamin Netanyahu not interfered with peace talks in the early 2000s, or if the more secularized Palestinian political organizations would have still insisted on getting back more land from Israel[3] than was otherwise acceptable. [2] Far-right groups in general love to secretly break bread with their enemies as a form of mutual ideological sadomasochism. Remember, the evil other they propagandize against isn't their real enemy. They actually share a common cause with the evil other: kill the liberals and left-wingers trying to stop them from killing each other and turning their country into a perpetual meat grinder. [3] Yes, pretty much all of Israel is stolen land, in the "British Empire" sense. Used to actually be part of Britain. That theft is still in living memory, which is also a factor as to why Hamas finds it so easy to recruit new terrorists and why any attempt at negotiating a two-state peace deal is impossible. Peace on fair terms is morally unacceptable to both parties.

Israel is much less sadistic in their killing methods than Palestine (read torture and mutilation). One hypothesis is they're trying to convince people otherwise. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Hamas_attack_on_Israel https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Hamas_attack_on_Israel

theossuary 3y ago
As apposed to being buried under ruble for days slowly dying of dehydration while dealing with the excruciating pain of your injuries? Honestly think I'd rather die by Hamas' hands if I had a choice.
- hotdogscout 3y ago
  I wouldn't. Seeing my family tortured in front of me? I'd take the ruble of concrete.
- emptyfile 3y ago
  Raped to death? Burned alive?
giraffe_lady 3y ago
You can only think this because their methods are our methods. Bringing buildings down around children letting them die by the thousands of dehydration and inadequate medical care while the survivors watch is as horrific as anything could be.
megous 3y ago
Yeah? Go to dead_terrorists on telegram and read some comments there, if you want to see Israel's sadism.
dragonwriter 3y ago
Israel is not exactly known for eschewing the use of torture, historically or currently. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/11/israel-opt-horrifying-cases-of-torture-and-degrading-treatment-of-palestinian-detainees-amid-spike-in-arbitrary-arrests/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/11/israel-opt-ho...
- hotdogscout 3y ago
  The documentation linked for torture on that press release (SUMMARY OF VIOLATIONS OF THE CONVENTION AGAINST TORTURE) says: "Most frequently such torture or other ill-treatment takes the form of beatings: many detainees have described being beaten with gun butts immediately after arrest and then thrown on the floor of a jeep, where they lie during the journey under the boots of soldiers. It may also involve the use of dogs in an aggressive manner, painful shackling (if related to an arrest) or humiliating or degrading treatment." Having been to Brazilian prison (and being under Brazil's jurisdiction) I wouldn't classify this as torture, otherwise my brother was also tortured when arrested for drug trafficking. I wouldn't say this type of violence is as shocking as Hamas is, too.
  - dragonwriter 3y ago
    > Having been to Brazilian prison I wouldn't classify this as torture, otherwise my brother was also tortured when arrested for drug trafficking. So, either Israel doesn't torture or someone in prison for drug trafficking in a system in which torture is a well-known (and apparently, from polling, widely publicly accepted!) systemic feature of the law enforcement and prison system [0] was tortured? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture_in_Brazil https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture_in_Brazil
    - hotdogscout 3y ago
      I think there's a difference between mutilating someone's limbs and hitting them with the back of a gun and UN's definition doesn't accurately describe that difference.
bjourne 3y ago
I'm not so sure about that. https://electronicintifada.net/content/israelis-filmed-abusing-bodies-palestinian-fighters/39731 https://electronicintifada.net/content/israelis-filmed-abusi...
- hotdogscout 3y ago
  I said "Israel is much less sadistic in their killing methods", none of these videos address my claim. They're either dead terrorists/fighters being defiled or not being killed.

kmeisthax 3y ago

Hamas's primary reason of existence is propaganda. Actually, two different kinds: - Direct propaganda to the Palestinian people that peace with Israel is practically impossible and morally indefensible, and that the only option is to kill millions of Israelis in the name of Palestinian living space - Indirect propaganda to the Israeli people that peace with Palestine is practically impossible and morally indefensible, and that the only option is to oppress millions of Palestinians in the name of Jewish living space That last one is going to not make sense, except in a "butterflies and flowers[0]" sense... until you remember that Israel directly funded Hamas specifically to discredit more liberal and secular Palestinian independence movements that might[1] have actually been willing to settle for a two-state solution with a few land swaps and concessions. The reasoning for why they'd fund their own violent opposition is outside the scope of this comment[2], you just need to know that it happened. Once you understand that Hamas exists primarily to propagandize against Israel, the staging makes sense. I mean, actual death and destruction is a stimulus that provokes pain and anguish, but why stop at what's real? Supernormal stimuli provoke supernormal responses. In other words, Hamas is a violence porn and snuff film factory masquerading as a guerilla warfare unit. In other, other words, they're terrorists. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3j_RHkqJc&t=240s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3j_RHkqJc&t=240s [1] Ok, I don't actually know if this counterfactual would have held, had Benjamin Netanyahu not interfered with peace talks in the early 2000s, or if the more secularized Palestinian political organizations would have still insisted on getting back more land from Israel[3] than was otherwise acceptable. [2] Far-right groups in general love to secretly break bread with their enemies as a form of mutual ideological sadomasochism. Remember, the evil other they propagandize against isn't their real enemy. They actually share a common cause with the evil other: kill the liberals and left-wingers trying to stop them from killing each other and turning their country into a perpetual meat grinder. [3] Yes, pretty much all of Israel is stolen land, in the "British Empire" sense. Used to actually be part of Britain. That theft is still in living memory, which is also a factor as to why Hamas finds it so easy to recruit new terrorists and why any attempt at negotiating a two-state peace deal is impossible. Peace on fair terms is morally unacceptable to both parties.