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I can't help but wonder what it would take for Europeans to develop a sense of mistrust in top-down governance.

masswerk 3y ago
For most of the time, the Commission seemed to be a reasonable (as in "voice of reason") counterweight to regional governments and their insanities. Having said that, the EU appears to be wearing off in weird directions, lately…
- bradley13 3y ago
  Um, no. The EU parliament has occasionally been a counterweight to insanity. The EU commission has always shown its innate authoritarian tendencies. Wannabe little dictators, they are. Now that lobbiests have more effectively gotten their teeth into the parliament, I am honestly pessimistic about EU governance.
  - kmeisthax 3y ago
    The commission isn't even "wannabe dictators", it's just where national governments policy-launder all their unpopular bills to. If something is going to piss off their citizens[0], they make the Commission make them do it, then blame the EU. The specific reason why policy laundering is possible is because international organizations are only accountable to their member states and not citizens. Making them accountable to citizens means getting rid of those member state vetos and having direct elected Commissioners instead - i.e. moving closer to a federal model of Europe. In America, we used to appoint Senators rather than electing them, as a vestige of pre-federal America where states were supposed to actually be co-sovereigns. The result was that - once Americans figured out how to use their political power effectively - every state gubernatorial race became a proxy vote for Senate anyway. I suspect we need something like this to happen in the EU, where politicians precommit to specific Commissioner appointments, until this becomes enough of a problem that the EU decides to make Commissioners elected. [0] And, more generally, all EU citizens
- omginternets 3y ago
  I beg to differ, but that's also missing the point. The more important point is how profoundly undemocratic the EU is as an institution, and how you'd expect a continent with recent experience of totalitarianism to be very careful with such things. Have we already forgotten that a fair few countries rejected the EU constitution by referendum, only to have it shoved down their throats? Have we forgotten that Europe managed to produce some of the most brutal totalitarian states, and this within living memory? Are we really going to write this off as mere "maladministration"? Have we learned nothing? I can already hear the objections. "But omginternets, this time the government is enforcing the right ideas!" We're going to end up proving the Americans right. Let that sink in.
  - boppo1 3y ago
    Yeah but the EU is relatively progressive & promotes immigration & multiculturalism, so they can't be totalitarian.
  - nvm0n2 3y ago
    The sad, awkward and near-unspeakable problem is that totalitarianism flourished in 20th century Europe partly because the culture was tolerant of it. That culture wasn't totally erased by the Allies at the end of WW2, which is why the EU's history is full of WTF moments like when Jean-Claude Juncker unveiled a giant statue of Karl Marx and then gave a speech defending him, claiming communism wasn't his fault [1]. Were European national leaders up in arms about this? No, not really :( The primary objections came from the Brits, some Hungarian MEPs, and, um, US Congress, three members of whom wrote to Mr Juncker reminding him that Marxist ideology led to extreme violence and the oppression of eastern Europe. I think many Americans don't realize what the EU's history actually is. Juncker's honoring of Marx wasn't unexpected. The original proposal for the EU was made by communists imprisoned on an island during WW2. The Ventotene Manifesto specifically called for a socialist federation [2]. Spinelli devoted his life to the construction of the EU and spent 6 years as a member of the Commission, during which time he was actually a member of the Italian Communist Party! There is a major building in Brussels named after him, in his honor. This attitude can be seen in the many disturbing quotes from major EU figures, like these from [3]. Juncker: - "When it becomes serious, you have to lie" - "We decide on something, leave it lying around and wait and see what happens. If no one kicks up a fuss, because most people don't understand what has been decided we continue step by step until there is no turning back." - "Britain is different. Of course there will be transfers of sovereignty. But would I be intelligent to draw the attention of public opinion to this fact?" Vivian Reding (a VP of the Commission) - "We must now embark on the road to a United States of Europe." - "When people ask politicians today “What will become of Europe?” or “Where is European integration heading?”, we usually give an evasive answer. “We don’t want a super state” that is generally the first thing we say. I must admit that I have in the past often resorted to this kind of thing myself. Helmut Kohl, former German Chancellor - “The process of Union is like the Rhine flowing into the sea. Anyone who stands in its way is crushed” Guy Verhofstadt, MEP chosen to represent the EP in Brexit negotiations - “The world order of tomorrow is not a world order based on nation states or countries. It’s a world order that is based on empires.” Jean-Luc Dehaene, former Belgian PM and VP of the EU Convention - "More than that, if the answer is No, the vote will probably have to be done again, because it absolutely has to be Yes." Raymond Barre, former French PM - "I have never understood why public opinion about European ideas should be taken into account." etc etc. [1] https://finance.yahoo.com/news/eu-chief-defends-marx-controversial-speech-mark-communists-birth-173609688.html https://finance.yahoo.com/news/eu-chief-defends-marx-controv... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ventotene_Manifesto https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ventotene_Manifesto [3] https://www.reddit.com/r/OutCampaign/comments/36ofm0/quotes_from_federalists_and_prointegrationists/ https://www.reddit.com/r/OutCampaign/comments/36ofm0/quotes_...
- cultureswitch 3y ago
  The Commission is the governments of the member states. Which makes it ironically the most corrupt and undemocratic part of the EU, despite being literally made of people elected through national elections. People who say member states are more democratic than the EU tend to have a problem with this one.
  - masswerk 3y ago
    Hum, the governments of the member states convene in the European Council, actually. (The Commission is more like a civil servants organisation, second rank to this and in delicate balance with the European Parliament.)

For most of the time, the Commission seemed to be a reasonable (as in "voice of reason") counterweight to regional governments and their insanities. Having said that, the EU appears to be wearing off in weird directions, lately…

bradley13 3y ago
Um, no. The EU parliament has occasionally been a counterweight to insanity. The EU commission has always shown its innate authoritarian tendencies. Wannabe little dictators, they are. Now that lobbiests have more effectively gotten their teeth into the parliament, I am honestly pessimistic about EU governance.
- kmeisthax 3y ago
  The commission isn't even "wannabe dictators", it's just where national governments policy-launder all their unpopular bills to. If something is going to piss off their citizens[0], they make the Commission make them do it, then blame the EU. The specific reason why policy laundering is possible is because international organizations are only accountable to their member states and not citizens. Making them accountable to citizens means getting rid of those member state vetos and having direct elected Commissioners instead - i.e. moving closer to a federal model of Europe. In America, we used to appoint Senators rather than electing them, as a vestige of pre-federal America where states were supposed to actually be co-sovereigns. The result was that - once Americans figured out how to use their political power effectively - every state gubernatorial race became a proxy vote for Senate anyway. I suspect we need something like this to happen in the EU, where politicians precommit to specific Commissioner appointments, until this becomes enough of a problem that the EU decides to make Commissioners elected. [0] And, more generally, all EU citizens
omginternets 3y ago
I beg to differ, but that's also missing the point. The more important point is how profoundly undemocratic the EU is as an institution, and how you'd expect a continent with recent experience of totalitarianism to be very careful with such things. Have we already forgotten that a fair few countries rejected the EU constitution by referendum, only to have it shoved down their throats? Have we forgotten that Europe managed to produce some of the most brutal totalitarian states, and this within living memory? Are we really going to write this off as mere "maladministration"? Have we learned nothing? I can already hear the objections. "But omginternets, this time the government is enforcing the right ideas!" We're going to end up proving the Americans right. Let that sink in.
- boppo1 3y ago
  Yeah but the EU is relatively progressive & promotes immigration & multiculturalism, so they can't be totalitarian.
- nvm0n2 3y ago
  The sad, awkward and near-unspeakable problem is that totalitarianism flourished in 20th century Europe partly because the culture was tolerant of it. That culture wasn't totally erased by the Allies at the end of WW2, which is why the EU's history is full of WTF moments like when Jean-Claude Juncker unveiled a giant statue of Karl Marx and then gave a speech defending him, claiming communism wasn't his fault [1]. Were European national leaders up in arms about this? No, not really :( The primary objections came from the Brits, some Hungarian MEPs, and, um, US Congress, three members of whom wrote to Mr Juncker reminding him that Marxist ideology led to extreme violence and the oppression of eastern Europe. I think many Americans don't realize what the EU's history actually is. Juncker's honoring of Marx wasn't unexpected. The original proposal for the EU was made by communists imprisoned on an island during WW2. The Ventotene Manifesto specifically called for a socialist federation [2]. Spinelli devoted his life to the construction of the EU and spent 6 years as a member of the Commission, during which time he was actually a member of the Italian Communist Party! There is a major building in Brussels named after him, in his honor. This attitude can be seen in the many disturbing quotes from major EU figures, like these from [3]. Juncker: - "When it becomes serious, you have to lie" - "We decide on something, leave it lying around and wait and see what happens. If no one kicks up a fuss, because most people don't understand what has been decided we continue step by step until there is no turning back." - "Britain is different. Of course there will be transfers of sovereignty. But would I be intelligent to draw the attention of public opinion to this fact?" Vivian Reding (a VP of the Commission) - "We must now embark on the road to a United States of Europe." - "When people ask politicians today “What will become of Europe?” or “Where is European integration heading?”, we usually give an evasive answer. “We don’t want a super state” that is generally the first thing we say. I must admit that I have in the past often resorted to this kind of thing myself. Helmut Kohl, former German Chancellor - “The process of Union is like the Rhine flowing into the sea. Anyone who stands in its way is crushed” Guy Verhofstadt, MEP chosen to represent the EP in Brexit negotiations - “The world order of tomorrow is not a world order based on nation states or countries. It’s a world order that is based on empires.” Jean-Luc Dehaene, former Belgian PM and VP of the EU Convention - "More than that, if the answer is No, the vote will probably have to be done again, because it absolutely has to be Yes." Raymond Barre, former French PM - "I have never understood why public opinion about European ideas should be taken into account." etc etc. [1] https://finance.yahoo.com/news/eu-chief-defends-marx-controversial-speech-mark-communists-birth-173609688.html https://finance.yahoo.com/news/eu-chief-defends-marx-controv... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ventotene_Manifesto https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ventotene_Manifesto [3] https://www.reddit.com/r/OutCampaign/comments/36ofm0/quotes_from_federalists_and_prointegrationists/ https://www.reddit.com/r/OutCampaign/comments/36ofm0/quotes_...
cultureswitch 3y ago
The Commission is the governments of the member states. Which makes it ironically the most corrupt and undemocratic part of the EU, despite being literally made of people elected through national elections. People who say member states are more democratic than the EU tend to have a problem with this one.
- masswerk 3y ago
  Hum, the governments of the member states convene in the European Council, actually. (The Commission is more like a civil servants organisation, second rank to this and in delicate balance with the European Parliament.)