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I agree that immigration is a quick fix for a low fertility rate. But the people worrying about fertility rates fear cultural displacement by immigrants. They w

by Joeri 3y ago

I agree that immigration is a quick fix for a low fertility rate. But the people worrying about fertility rates fear cultural displacement by immigrants. They want less immigration, not more, and instead see a return to family values as the answer to the fertility rate problem. Anyway, the problem is not the current decline in population, it is a fertility rate that remains far below a replacement rate. That means there is no bottom to the population decline. The immigration solution would need to be applied again and again.

mkaic 3y ago
I want more immigration AND more fertility, personally.
kjkjadksj 3y ago
People worrying about cultural displacement in europe need to crack open a history book and understand the movement of people is just how the world works. Its like the movement of air from different pressure areas. Most spanish people are actually a mix of moors and visigoths, other mediterranean people through history, and even celtic or germanic peoples who by and large displaced some earlier occupant of the iberian pennisula, who displaced some even earlier people, and so on and so forth until we get to whoever displaced the neanderthals. And all of this displacement involved assimilation too. Acting like migration should stop now would be like asking the wind to stop blowing or the tides to stop. Its like a natural law that people will go where theres better opportunities for them.
- shiroiuma 3y ago
  You're talking about the moors and visigoths in Spain, but did you forget those people integrated with the locals by invading? They weren't exactly welcomed with open arms, they just forced their way in and then took over. That's how the history of most of Europe looks, with all those examples of people displaced by newcomers. Why would any sane person want this? Just because it happened commonly in the past doesn't mean it's a good thing. In the modern world, we've mostly agreed that invading other places just because you want to live there, and want to marginalize or kill the people already living there, is no longer acceptable. Are you honestly saying you want to go back to those days?
strken 3y ago
I suspect a return to the family home values of the 90s and before, somewhere around 3x the average income, would be more effective than family values in the abstract.
Toutouxc 3y ago
> That means there is no bottom to the population decline. The only reason I still don't have a kid is expensive housing (i.e. too many people for too little space). My partner is more or less tied to the capital because of her job and our apartment literally (and I mean literally) can't fit one more desk, much less one more person. A population decline (with the society kept running by more automation) should make things a bit easier, shouldn't it?

by Joeri 3y ago

mkaic 3y ago

I want more immigration AND more fertility, personally.

kjkjadksj 3y ago

People worrying about cultural displacement in europe need to crack open a history book and understand the movement of people is just how the world works. Its like the movement of air from different pressure areas. Most spanish people are actually a mix of moors and visigoths, other mediterranean people through history, and even celtic or germanic peoples who by and large displaced some earlier occupant of the iberian pennisula, who displaced some even earlier people, and so on and so forth until we get to whoever displaced the neanderthals. And all of this displacement involved assimilation too. Acting like migration should stop now would be like asking the wind to stop blowing or the tides to stop. Its like a natural law that people will go where theres better opportunities for them.

shiroiuma 3y ago
You're talking about the moors and visigoths in Spain, but did you forget those people integrated with the locals by invading? They weren't exactly welcomed with open arms, they just forced their way in and then took over. That's how the history of most of Europe looks, with all those examples of people displaced by newcomers. Why would any sane person want this? Just because it happened commonly in the past doesn't mean it's a good thing. In the modern world, we've mostly agreed that invading other places just because you want to live there, and want to marginalize or kill the people already living there, is no longer acceptable. Are you honestly saying you want to go back to those days?

strken 3y ago

I suspect a return to the family home values of the 90s and before, somewhere around 3x the average income, would be more effective than family values in the abstract.

Toutouxc 3y ago

> That means there is no bottom to the population decline. The only reason I still don't have a kid is expensive housing (i.e. too many people for too little space). My partner is more or less tied to the capital because of her job and our apartment literally (and I mean literally) can't fit one more desk, much less one more person. A population decline (with the society kept running by more automation) should make things a bit easier, shouldn't it?