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“We made it terrible for our own people to make families, but don’t worry! We can keep the party going by importing loads of people due to economic forces!” Sou

“We made it terrible for our own people to make families, but don’t worry! We can keep the party going by importing loads of people due to economic forces!” Sounds so incredibly shitty. If an economic system works so poorly for people they have to be imported (I.e. locals who want to form families can’t) it should be dismantled. I care about “global capital” far less than I care about my compatriots ability to form strong families. We should absolutely be worried by terrible birth rates.

cies 3y ago
> If an economic system works so poorly for people they have to be imported Interesting thought. The notion that GDPpopulation has to grow comes comes from that economic system. The problem is that the economic system dictates policy to such a large extend that democracy is a farce. > I care about “global capital” far less than I care about my compatriots ability to form strong families. +1 > We should absolutely be worried by terrible birth rates. Why? What's the daily life/ human problem with becoming less humans? (I know the economic GDPpopulation reason, and I know why militarily that IS very important)
- cies 3y ago
  i meant "GDP x population"; messed with the formatting.
caskstrength 3y ago
> If an economic system works so poorly for people they have to be imported (I.e. locals who want to form families can’t) it should be dismantled. Most of developed countries have bad fertility rate, some developing and/or poor countries have good fertility rate. People in rich countries don't have children not because they can't afford to, but because they don't want to.
- analognoise 3y ago
  You’re right, it’s not that a standard wage can’t even get you an apartment, medical care is astronomical, and the capitalists are ruining everything. It’s that people stopped wanting kids. How silly of me. We undid all the evolutionary programming of our species to play XBox and rent. …or it’s that the system is broken and we should cease importing people because the only people that “win” in that situation are those connected to global capital.
  - caskstrength 3y ago
    > You’re right, it’s not that a standard wage can’t even get you an apartment, medical care is astronomical, and the capitalists are ruining everything. Did you somehow miss word "Spain" in the title and immediately proceeded with US-specific rant? Additional info from Wikipedia[0]: > As of 2020, according to the World Economic Forum and to Bloomberg, Spain has the most efficient health system in Europe, and also ranks at the top worldwide along with Hong Kong, Japan and Singapore. > Due to universal health care coverage, inequality is reduced substantially. Inequality in Spain is even further reduced in that co-payments do not usually apply, limited to special medicines and services that are not covered by the National Health System. And yet socialist Spain has fertility rate of 1.3 compared to 1.7 of dystopian capitalist-driver privatized-healthcare-only US [1]. I'm sure everyone buying a house every year and enjoying even better health care in such countries as Niger, Chad and Somalia that somehow on top of the fertility list though. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Spain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Spain [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_fertility_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_fer...
Lord-Jobo 3y ago
There are no nations that currently have a both modern living and population growth, i think there are definitely some fundamental failures to make having children an attractive option in many countries like the US, but even countries that give a billion hours parental leave, tax breaks, etc. have declining populations. your solution requires a dismantling of the entire global system of governments and economies and the implementation of something new and poorly tested. which may be in our future regardless, and may be necessary at some point. but massive change on that scale only happens in response to horrifying levels of war or unpredictable changes in technology(changes on the scale of a power positive fusion revolution). You either dont want or cannot force those things. the immigration solution is a stop-gap and still a big change for most, but one that buys nations 40+ years and is no harder than simply opening the door that millions are banging on right now, and billions will be banging on as climate disaster grows.
- analognoise 3y ago
  “your solution requires a dismantling of the entire global system of governments and economies and the implementation of something new and poorly tested.“ So the system we currently have, which we already agree is failing people here, but we’re worried changing the system is bad? Why take 40 more years if it’s already failing? Letting millions of people in is NOT GOOD for the people already here. I say we just don’t do that. The only people benefitting are part of a global capital class and not regular workers. We were sold that it would bring worldwide peace and better living conditions. It was a lie and we know it - why continue?
- shiroiuma 3y ago
  Personally, I think the real solution, the ultimate solution, was detailed in the 1930s book "Brave New World" by Aldous Huxley: reproduction and child-rearing needs to be outsourced to the government. It's the only way for the math to work. People just don't want to have 6 kids any more, and I don't think that's going to change. (And yes, people have to have 6 kids for population growth to work, because there's always going to be people who have 1 or none, so you need plenty of high-fertility couples to make up for them. People haven't stopped having kids these days, they've just stopped having so many.)

cies 3y ago

> If an economic system works so poorly for people they have to be imported Interesting thought. The notion that GDPpopulation has to grow comes comes from that economic system. The problem is that the economic system dictates policy to such a large extend that democracy is a farce. > I care about “global capital” far less than I care about my compatriots ability to form strong families. +1 > We should absolutely be worried by terrible birth rates. Why? What's the daily life/ human problem with becoming less humans? (I know the economic GDPpopulation reason, and I know why militarily that IS very important)

cies 3y ago
i meant "GDP x population"; messed with the formatting.

caskstrength 3y ago

> If an economic system works so poorly for people they have to be imported (I.e. locals who want to form families can’t) it should be dismantled. Most of developed countries have bad fertility rate, some developing and/or poor countries have good fertility rate. People in rich countries don't have children not because they can't afford to, but because they don't want to.

analognoise 3y ago
You’re right, it’s not that a standard wage can’t even get you an apartment, medical care is astronomical, and the capitalists are ruining everything. It’s that people stopped wanting kids. How silly of me. We undid all the evolutionary programming of our species to play XBox and rent. …or it’s that the system is broken and we should cease importing people because the only people that “win” in that situation are those connected to global capital.
- caskstrength 3y ago
  > You’re right, it’s not that a standard wage can’t even get you an apartment, medical care is astronomical, and the capitalists are ruining everything. Did you somehow miss word "Spain" in the title and immediately proceeded with US-specific rant? Additional info from Wikipedia[0]: > As of 2020, according to the World Economic Forum and to Bloomberg, Spain has the most efficient health system in Europe, and also ranks at the top worldwide along with Hong Kong, Japan and Singapore. > Due to universal health care coverage, inequality is reduced substantially. Inequality in Spain is even further reduced in that co-payments do not usually apply, limited to special medicines and services that are not covered by the National Health System. And yet socialist Spain has fertility rate of 1.3 compared to 1.7 of dystopian capitalist-driver privatized-healthcare-only US [1]. I'm sure everyone buying a house every year and enjoying even better health care in such countries as Niger, Chad and Somalia that somehow on top of the fertility list though. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Spain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Spain [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_fertility_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_fer...

Lord-Jobo 3y ago

There are no nations that currently have a both modern living and population growth, i think there are definitely some fundamental failures to make having children an attractive option in many countries like the US, but even countries that give a billion hours parental leave, tax breaks, etc. have declining populations. your solution requires a dismantling of the entire global system of governments and economies and the implementation of something new and poorly tested. which may be in our future regardless, and may be necessary at some point. but massive change on that scale only happens in response to horrifying levels of war or unpredictable changes in technology(changes on the scale of a power positive fusion revolution). You either dont want or cannot force those things. the immigration solution is a stop-gap and still a big change for most, but one that buys nations 40+ years and is no harder than simply opening the door that millions are banging on right now, and billions will be banging on as climate disaster grows.

analognoise 3y ago
“your solution requires a dismantling of the entire global system of governments and economies and the implementation of something new and poorly tested.“ So the system we currently have, which we already agree is failing people here, but we’re worried changing the system is bad? Why take 40 more years if it’s already failing? Letting millions of people in is NOT GOOD for the people already here. I say we just don’t do that. The only people benefitting are part of a global capital class and not regular workers. We were sold that it would bring worldwide peace and better living conditions. It was a lie and we know it - why continue?
shiroiuma 3y ago
Personally, I think the real solution, the ultimate solution, was detailed in the 1930s book "Brave New World" by Aldous Huxley: reproduction and child-rearing needs to be outsourced to the government. It's the only way for the math to work. People just don't want to have 6 kids any more, and I don't think that's going to change. (And yes, people have to have 6 kids for population growth to work, because there's always going to be people who have 1 or none, so you need plenty of high-fertility couples to make up for them. People haven't stopped having kids these days, they've just stopped having so many.)