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Teslas argument against this has been that they provide better terms already. Someone on r/sweden fact checked their statement and claims Tesla is worse on alm

Teslas argument against this has been that they provide better terms already. Someone on r/sweden fact checked their statement and claims Tesla is worse on almost all comparison points including salary.

hef19898 3y ago
No idea how collective bargaining works in Sweden, im Germany so individual employers regularly enter into supplemental agreements with their respesctive employee councils. So I guess bothing prevents Tesla from doing the same with regards to their "better" conditions, employees and unions propably wont oppose that neither.
- Ekaros 3y ago
  You can always give employees more pay, more vacation, better health care and so on. No union will prevent that. It just guarantees the absolute minimum levels.
  - Hamuko 3y ago
    Our collective agreement doesn't guarantee absolute minimums for all things. For example on on-call compensation: "Unless a local agreement has been made on standby compensation, the employee is paid 40% of the normal hourly salary."
    - jordanbeiber 3y ago
      That’s usually comp for simply being on-call - all agreements I’ve ever had includes increased compensation for actual on-call work a.k.a overtime compensation.
      - Hamuko 3y ago
        There's a separate section for the actual work. 3. Call-out Call-out means work for which the employee is called back after regular working hours and after having left the workplace. 3.1. At least one hour’s salary and a call-out pay shall be paid as follows: a) If the employee was called after regular working hours or on the employ- ee’s day off but before 9.00 pm, the call-out pay is equivalent to 2 hours’ salary. b) If the employee was called between 9:00 pm and 6:00 am, the call-out pay is equivalent to 3 hours’ salary. 3.2. If the work in case b) above represents daily overtime, the overtime com- pensation for call-out work done as overtime work is immediately 100%. https://ytn.fi/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/tes_engl_3101_2022_web.pdf https://ytn.fi/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/tes_engl_3101_2022...
    - hef19898 3y ago
      In Germany it is quite common for individual agreements to e.g. increase working hours from 35 to 37.5, 38 or 40 hours without a pay adjustment. Those individual agreements are still negotiated, most of the time, between an employer and company/employee union reps. What Tesla does is just plain stupid, only to make a point about opossing unions...
Kiro 3y ago
Do you have a link to the fact check?
bjourne 3y ago
It's a transparent BS argument. If Tesla provides better terms then what harm would come from signing an agreement to not provide worse terms than the industry baseline?
- toolz 3y ago
  I don't know anything about this situation, but to play devils advocate here, if my goals were not in alignment with the union bosses or whatever group is trying to get me to sign. I would avoid even reading the terms if there wasn't real market pressure to do so. If a group exists explicitly trying to be an authority over how I behave but we have nonaligned goals, I'm never going to make it painless for them to have input on how I behave. I would want them to know I will operate as I deem correct until I have goals that can't be met without their approval. They could be trying to force me to sign a contract that simply says I'll operate however I want to and if I believed they were an opposing force and not a partner I wouldn't sign it until I was force to sign it.
  - vincnetas 3y ago
    They might have to experience Scandinavian market pressure. One story about how McDonalds choose to experience it : Once the sympathy strikes got going, McDonalds folded pretty quickly and decided to start following the hotel and restaurant agreement in 1989. This is why McDonalds workers in Denmark are paid $22 per hour. https://mattbruenig.com/2021/09/20/when-mcdonalds-came-to-denmark/ https://mattbruenig.com/2021/09/20/when-mcdonalds-came-to-de...
piva00 3y ago
It's the same bullshit argument used by Spotify and Klarna. If the companies are already providing better terms then there's even less reason to not sign a collective bargaining agreement: the CBA only sets the lower bar, anything over that the companies are free to provide as they do right now. Nothing changes if that's the argument. What they are trying to hide is the argument that a CBA will give power to employees during major reorgs with layoffs, a CBA doesn't set an upper bound to what employers can offer as benefits, just a lower one.
- kriops 3y ago
  Scandinavian unions are incredibly naive financially speaking, and entirely lack a basic understanding of capital markets on an organizational level - including their relationship with the question of what constitutes fair compensation. They also completely neglect the stakeholder problem when considering compensation models - where arguments such as yours about raising the floor are completely removed from the context of financial realities.
kriops 3y ago
Based on my personal experience with Scandinavian unions (I was an unorganized employee in a chain in which some stores had a push for unionization), these “fact checks” should be taken with a huge grain of salt. The math often aint mathin. More often than not they were comparing apples and lemons to come out “on top”. And the unions and their affiliates are just another breed of politicians – both in terms of trustworthiness and ambitions. Quite often they are also just literally politicians with another hat. The stores that got roped in (every store got to freely chose between the store- and the union-approved compensation models) made a huge fuzz when they lost out on variable compensation sometime later. Now I didn’t work for Tesla, so the deals might work out differently here, but my point is that your comment is double hearsay, and that unions have every incentive to lie – at the very least by omission.

hef19898 3y ago

No idea how collective bargaining works in Sweden, im Germany so individual employers regularly enter into supplemental agreements with their respesctive employee councils. So I guess bothing prevents Tesla from doing the same with regards to their "better" conditions, employees and unions propably wont oppose that neither.

Ekaros 3y ago
You can always give employees more pay, more vacation, better health care and so on. No union will prevent that. It just guarantees the absolute minimum levels.
- Hamuko 3y ago
  Our collective agreement doesn't guarantee absolute minimums for all things. For example on on-call compensation: "Unless a local agreement has been made on standby compensation, the employee is paid 40% of the normal hourly salary."
  - jordanbeiber 3y ago
    That’s usually comp for simply being on-call - all agreements I’ve ever had includes increased compensation for actual on-call work a.k.a overtime compensation.
    - Hamuko 3y ago
      There's a separate section for the actual work. 3. Call-out Call-out means work for which the employee is called back after regular working hours and after having left the workplace. 3.1. At least one hour’s salary and a call-out pay shall be paid as follows: a) If the employee was called after regular working hours or on the employ- ee’s day off but before 9.00 pm, the call-out pay is equivalent to 2 hours’ salary. b) If the employee was called between 9:00 pm and 6:00 am, the call-out pay is equivalent to 3 hours’ salary. 3.2. If the work in case b) above represents daily overtime, the overtime com- pensation for call-out work done as overtime work is immediately 100%. https://ytn.fi/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/tes_engl_3101_2022_web.pdf https://ytn.fi/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/tes_engl_3101_2022...
  - hef19898 3y ago
    In Germany it is quite common for individual agreements to e.g. increase working hours from 35 to 37.5, 38 or 40 hours without a pay adjustment. Those individual agreements are still negotiated, most of the time, between an employer and company/employee union reps. What Tesla does is just plain stupid, only to make a point about opossing unions...

Kiro 3y ago

Do you have a link to the fact check?

bjourne 3y ago

It's a transparent BS argument. If Tesla provides better terms then what harm would come from signing an agreement to not provide worse terms than the industry baseline?

toolz 3y ago
I don't know anything about this situation, but to play devils advocate here, if my goals were not in alignment with the union bosses or whatever group is trying to get me to sign. I would avoid even reading the terms if there wasn't real market pressure to do so. If a group exists explicitly trying to be an authority over how I behave but we have nonaligned goals, I'm never going to make it painless for them to have input on how I behave. I would want them to know I will operate as I deem correct until I have goals that can't be met without their approval. They could be trying to force me to sign a contract that simply says I'll operate however I want to and if I believed they were an opposing force and not a partner I wouldn't sign it until I was force to sign it.
- vincnetas 3y ago
  They might have to experience Scandinavian market pressure. One story about how McDonalds choose to experience it : Once the sympathy strikes got going, McDonalds folded pretty quickly and decided to start following the hotel and restaurant agreement in 1989. This is why McDonalds workers in Denmark are paid $22 per hour. https://mattbruenig.com/2021/09/20/when-mcdonalds-came-to-denmark/ https://mattbruenig.com/2021/09/20/when-mcdonalds-came-to-de...

piva00 3y ago

It's the same bullshit argument used by Spotify and Klarna. If the companies are already providing better terms then there's even less reason to not sign a collective bargaining agreement: the CBA only sets the lower bar, anything over that the companies are free to provide as they do right now. Nothing changes if that's the argument. What they are trying to hide is the argument that a CBA will give power to employees during major reorgs with layoffs, a CBA doesn't set an upper bound to what employers can offer as benefits, just a lower one.

kriops 3y ago
Scandinavian unions are incredibly naive financially speaking, and entirely lack a basic understanding of capital markets on an organizational level - including their relationship with the question of what constitutes fair compensation. They also completely neglect the stakeholder problem when considering compensation models - where arguments such as yours about raising the floor are completely removed from the context of financial realities.

kriops 3y ago

Based on my personal experience with Scandinavian unions (I was an unorganized employee in a chain in which some stores had a push for unionization), these “fact checks” should be taken with a huge grain of salt. The math often aint mathin. More often than not they were comparing apples and lemons to come out “on top”. And the unions and their affiliates are just another breed of politicians – both in terms of trustworthiness and ambitions. Quite often they are also just literally politicians with another hat. The stores that got roped in (every store got to freely chose between the store- and the union-approved compensation models) made a huge fuzz when they lost out on variable compensation sometime later. Now I didn’t work for Tesla, so the deals might work out differently here, but my point is that your comment is double hearsay, and that unions have every incentive to lie – at the very least by omission.