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Americans have a very skweed view of what apartment living is actually like, in part because the construction of such buildings in America (outside of the ultra

by jmyeet 3y ago

Americans have a very skweed view of what apartment living is actually like, in part because the construction of such buildings in America (outside of the ultra-luxury market) is generally terrible. Lumber is abundant in North America and cheap so everything is timber-framed, which is awful for noise. I actually do not understand how people can live in two-story houses in the US. Such people complaining about noise seems crazy to me. Only drywall separating rooms. Only a plank between floors pretty much. Awful. Anyway, a lot of apartments in the US are what's called 5-over-1 construction. That's 1 concrete framed floor, often commercial and then 5 floors of timber-framed apartments above that. Terrible. Live in a decently built apartment and it's a completely different world. Actual high-rises tend to be decent because they have to be concrete and steel framed (although they may have cheap walls). Any pre-war apartments in NYC are generally amazing. It's also worth pointing out that complaining about noise and wanting things to be quiet isn't universal. Whenever you hear such complaints, make a mental note of their demographics and see what patterns you notice.

ernestrc 3y ago
Spaniard living in the US here. I grew up in apartment complexes and don’t ever remember worrying about noise. I think there’s definitely a component of just being used to it. Agree with your point on construction materials in the US, in relation to noise levels: the only time in my life that I was bothered by my loud neighbors was when I lived in a multi-family home unit in San Mateo, CA. It was a 4-unit home and I could literally hear all my neighbors whereabouts 24/7.
bluGill 3y ago
You have a very incorrect build of what modern American construction is like. Yes it is mostly timer-framed, but we have fire codes which means walls are not as thin as you seem to think. Sure if you look at an apartment built in 1950 your summary is valid, but that isn't done anymore. 5 over 1 refers to section 1 and section 5 of the building code and not the number of floors built for each. It is coincidence that with section 5, five floors is about the max you can have - but that is an about (sometimes 4 is all, sometimes you can get 6 - see a proper civil engineer for details). Section 1 is a lot more expensive to build, but it is also higher strength (and other features that make is useful for a parking garage)
- fragmede 3y ago
  it's still cheap and shitty and doesn't isolate sound, causing all sorts of problems with the neighbors that don't need to exist. thick concrete walls might as well be hypothetical, theoretical building material given how much not expensive it is, and thus how much rarer it is.
  - jandrewrogers 3y ago
    The use of masonry is limited by the requirements to withstand severe earthquakes, which are endemic throughout much of the US. I’ve lived in apartments that were effectively soundproof but those were legacy buildings where the interior concrete and masonry walls were not engineered to withstand earthquakes. It is pretty expensive to build apartments that are soundproof and can survive a magnitude 8+ earthquake. You can’t just throw building mass at the problem as is so common in Europe. Buildings need to have a lot of elastic flex to them.
  - DerekL 3y ago
    The type of construction doesn't really matter. There are soundproofing materials that can be installed behind drywall.
  - refurb 3y ago
    It's not "cheap and shitty", it's sustainable (unlike concrete), flexible (I can modify walls easily) and with good sound proofing quieter than concrete. I lived in a 100+ year old wood framed apartment building. The lifespan of concrete in most climate would mean that building would abandoned and too expensive to repair.
- kube-system 3y ago
  5-over-1, 5-over-2, 4-over-1, and 3-over-1 are all often used terminology and they're referring to the number of floors in a podium-constructed building, not different sections of IBC. All of these podium construction styles are a product of section 510.2 of the IBC which allows for these to be treated as two separate buildings for fire purposes. https://www.woodworks.org/resources/code-path-and-requirements-for-podium-projects/ https://www.woodworks.org/resources/code-path-and-requiremen... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5-over-1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5-over-1
refurb 3y ago
Disagree. Sounds in a concrete building can travel a very long way. Someone drilling into a wall or dropping something on the floor can be heard from several floors away. Timber construction usually limits sounds from neighboring units. And when it's well constructed with noise insulation, you don't even hear neighbors.
shiroiuma 3y ago
>Lumber is abundant in North America and cheap so everything is timber-framed, which is awful for noise. I actually do not understand how people can live in two-story houses in the US. Such people complaining about noise seems crazy to me. Only drywall separating rooms. Only a plank between floors pretty much. Awful. I like dumping on American housing standards, but this is completely wrong. Modern US timber framing has fairly thick walls filled with insulation. Some crappy apartments of course skimp on the insulation and you can hear the neighbors, but properly-constructed apartments are quite quiet, because of the insulation between units. In a single-family house, properly-made ones have low-grade noise insulation ("low grade" meaning it has a lower R-value than exterior insulation, because you don't need it between rooms) in the walls between rooms, so kids don't have to hear their parents screwing. "Only a plank between floors"? Please. >That's 1 concrete framed floor, often commercial and then 5 floors of timber-framed apartments above that. Terrible. Yeah, try actually spending some time in any decently-constructed modern apartment like this. They're not noisy at all. Say what you want about the earthquake or fire resistance of buildings like this, but noise is not the problem you think it is. >Actual high-rises tend to be decent because they have to be concrete and steel framed (although they may have cheap walls). If they have cheap walls, they're going to have the noise problems you're complaining about. Cheap walls = drywall (on lightweight steel studs) with little or no insulation. Noise is almost entirely a function of how well insulated the walls in a building are between units, except in places where the units are completely separated by solid concrete. It doesn't matter if it's wood-framed or steel-framed.

by jmyeet 3y ago

ernestrc 3y ago

Spaniard living in the US here. I grew up in apartment complexes and don’t ever remember worrying about noise. I think there’s definitely a component of just being used to it. Agree with your point on construction materials in the US, in relation to noise levels: the only time in my life that I was bothered by my loud neighbors was when I lived in a multi-family home unit in San Mateo, CA. It was a 4-unit home and I could literally hear all my neighbors whereabouts 24/7.

bluGill 3y ago

You have a very incorrect build of what modern American construction is like. Yes it is mostly timer-framed, but we have fire codes which means walls are not as thin as you seem to think. Sure if you look at an apartment built in 1950 your summary is valid, but that isn't done anymore. 5 over 1 refers to section 1 and section 5 of the building code and not the number of floors built for each. It is coincidence that with section 5, five floors is about the max you can have - but that is an about (sometimes 4 is all, sometimes you can get 6 - see a proper civil engineer for details). Section 1 is a lot more expensive to build, but it is also higher strength (and other features that make is useful for a parking garage)

fragmede 3y ago
it's still cheap and shitty and doesn't isolate sound, causing all sorts of problems with the neighbors that don't need to exist. thick concrete walls might as well be hypothetical, theoretical building material given how much not expensive it is, and thus how much rarer it is.
- jandrewrogers 3y ago
  The use of masonry is limited by the requirements to withstand severe earthquakes, which are endemic throughout much of the US. I’ve lived in apartments that were effectively soundproof but those were legacy buildings where the interior concrete and masonry walls were not engineered to withstand earthquakes. It is pretty expensive to build apartments that are soundproof and can survive a magnitude 8+ earthquake. You can’t just throw building mass at the problem as is so common in Europe. Buildings need to have a lot of elastic flex to them.
- DerekL 3y ago
  The type of construction doesn't really matter. There are soundproofing materials that can be installed behind drywall.
- refurb 3y ago
  It's not "cheap and shitty", it's sustainable (unlike concrete), flexible (I can modify walls easily) and with good sound proofing quieter than concrete. I lived in a 100+ year old wood framed apartment building. The lifespan of concrete in most climate would mean that building would abandoned and too expensive to repair.
kube-system 3y ago
5-over-1, 5-over-2, 4-over-1, and 3-over-1 are all often used terminology and they're referring to the number of floors in a podium-constructed building, not different sections of IBC. All of these podium construction styles are a product of section 510.2 of the IBC which allows for these to be treated as two separate buildings for fire purposes. https://www.woodworks.org/resources/code-path-and-requirements-for-podium-projects/ https://www.woodworks.org/resources/code-path-and-requiremen... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5-over-1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5-over-1

refurb 3y ago

Disagree. Sounds in a concrete building can travel a very long way. Someone drilling into a wall or dropping something on the floor can be heard from several floors away. Timber construction usually limits sounds from neighboring units. And when it's well constructed with noise insulation, you don't even hear neighbors.

shiroiuma 3y ago

>Lumber is abundant in North America and cheap so everything is timber-framed, which is awful for noise. I actually do not understand how people can live in two-story houses in the US. Such people complaining about noise seems crazy to me. Only drywall separating rooms. Only a plank between floors pretty much. Awful. I like dumping on American housing standards, but this is completely wrong. Modern US timber framing has fairly thick walls filled with insulation. Some crappy apartments of course skimp on the insulation and you can hear the neighbors, but properly-constructed apartments are quite quiet, because of the insulation between units. In a single-family house, properly-made ones have low-grade noise insulation ("low grade" meaning it has a lower R-value than exterior insulation, because you don't need it between rooms) in the walls between rooms, so kids don't have to hear their parents screwing. "Only a plank between floors"? Please. >That's 1 concrete framed floor, often commercial and then 5 floors of timber-framed apartments above that. Terrible. Yeah, try actually spending some time in any decently-constructed modern apartment like this. They're not noisy at all. Say what you want about the earthquake or fire resistance of buildings like this, but noise is not the problem you think it is. >Actual high-rises tend to be decent because they have to be concrete and steel framed (although they may have cheap walls). If they have cheap walls, they're going to have the noise problems you're complaining about. Cheap walls = drywall (on lightweight steel studs) with little or no insulation. Noise is almost entirely a function of how well insulated the walls in a building are between units, except in places where the units are completely separated by solid concrete. It doesn't matter if it's wood-framed or steel-framed.