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Do other careers have such a vast gap between the platonic ideal and the actual lived experience? The way most people talk about software engineering, you'd thi

Do other careers have such a vast gap between the platonic ideal and the actual lived experience? The way most people talk about software engineering, you'd think they were some kind of open-source warrior building entire applications from scratch when really they're on the Cancel Prime Membership Button Obfuscation Enablement team at Amazon. I think people like to role-play doing the job before it was professionalized because then it sounds less like you're a cog in a machine.

perlgeek 3y ago
> Do other careers have such a vast gap between the platonic ideal and the actual lived experience? In the past few years I've got the impression that when I go to a doctor with a slightly unusual symptom, they are very much lost. It seems the average GP learned a whole lot at University, and 20 years later treats the same 50 common things (colds, cuts, high blood pressure, you name it) and doesn't really remember all the quirky and exciting stuff from uni. I'd guess that the more academic the education is, the more likely you fall into that pattern.
- Balgair 3y ago
  I've interfaced with a fair few MDs in the US behind the scenes, so to speak. The site nearly every MD in the US uses is called UpToDate: https://www.uptodate.com/login https://www.uptodate.com/login It's not really for laypeople, so you can't poke around in there (check your alumni benefits though, many associations have subscriptions). But, to give you an idea, the site is pretty much a diagnostician. You can just plug in symptoms, patient history and demographics, and it'll give you nearly everything that you need to know. Lots of best practices, research papers, summary papers, testimonials, etc. It's effectively an AI for MDs, and it's good. What I'm trying to say is that your first instinct is correct: The MDs that you're going to really are in fact idiots that can't even be arsed to use a web form.
  - buildbot 3y ago
    Not sure why people are downvoting this - my partner is an MD and uses uptodate literally every few hours, when she's at home - I'm sure it's higher at the hospital/clinic. Some Doctors are checked out/lazy/make assumptions, just like everyone else.
    - matheusmoreira 3y ago
      Definitely. Resources like UpToDate are invaluable. Patient safety research proves it. Just double checking something to make sure reduces errors. Better not to do it in front of patients though. Many will assume you're incompetent if they see you doing it. Few will understand that you are a fallible human being who's using every possible resource to make up for it.
- michaelcampbell 3y ago
  I can't remember how long ago, but I read or heard about a few studies that show you're better off going to a freshly minted doctor, at least in the US. They'll not have had the time to build a cynicism around "what they learned is all they need to know". I know Dr's learn a lot throughout their career, but after they get into a practice they just don't have the time they did in medical school (or won't spend the time), and the trajectory flattens.
  - manicennui 3y ago
    Or go to a doctor that is part of a top university system that does real research, such as Northwestern or Rush in Chicago.
    - buildbot 3y ago
      A research oriented doctor is going to have very little interest in anything but their research. So if you know you have a rare disease, sure. But most people do not. Go to a doctor from a hospital with acclaimed primary care, like University of Washington Medicine. Ranked #1: https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-medical-schools/university-of-washington-seattle-campus-04122 https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-medical-sch...
      - manicennui 3y ago
        I used Northwestern for years and my internal medicine doctor always seemed more up to date. The specialists he referred me to were often involved with the university in some capacity and seemed to be aware of very up to date info in their fields.
        buildbot 3y ago
        Awesome! Good medical care is what everyone deserves
  - tstrimple 3y ago
    It's the same in software and likely every industry. Yeah, you still have plenty of very senior folks who have adopted the cloud and are building things in modern ways and on the bleeding edge of things. Then you've got the crusty HN types who think a Hetzner VM and Postgres is the best way to solve all the problems in the world and javascript is the bane of all existence. I've met the 50 year old developer who has written nothing but Java enterprise apps for the last 20 years who are all but useless outside of their niche, and a 60 year old developer who is still as giddy as a child while he's playing with code generation models. If technology is your passion, it's far easier to stay up to date and stay relevant. If technology is just your chosen career, you've got to intentionally put in the effort to stay up to date or risk becoming out of touch with the industry. There are passionate doctors and career doctors. Passionate home builders and career home builders. Etc. Etc.
- Rallen89 3y ago
  >'d guess that the more academic the education is, the more likely you fall into that pattern. of treating the most comments stuff and being lost? Would have thought the opposite, no, or am I misunderstanding
- waylandsmithers 3y ago
  Yes- I've had the same experience... the same "Huh, that's weird" kind of unknowing response that I give my parents when their printer isn't working again
- ejb999 3y ago
  unfortunately, many (most?) doctors have simply become prescription writing machines - "got a problem? there is a pill for that", and if that pill doesn't work, we will try something else. Good luck finding a MD that actually wants you to be healthy and drug free - the system is setup to give you a prescription and hope that it works; doctors around me won't even broach the subject of suggesting you lose some weight or get more exercise or even just eat more healthy food - they just write a prescription to deal with the adverse affects of your poor lifestyle.
  - matheusmoreira 3y ago
    In my experience, it's the opposite. Day in day out I tell patients to exercise and eat better. Some people manage to change their lifestyle, get better and even get off medications such as statins. Many don't and medication ends up being the only thing keeping things under control. Then there are the patients who will destroy you on social media when you tell them to take some responsibility because that's "intolerance" of their morbid obesity. Plenty of people out there looking for easy pill solutions to everything.
    - ejb999 3y ago
      Yep - I have several family members that work in primary care - many patients have filed formal complaints with the practice if the provider calls attention to the fact that someone is obese or is making unhealthy lifestyle choices and should make changes if they want to be healthier - one even threatening to sue if the office didn't take references to her chart that said she was clinically obese - so more and more providers are simply not broaching the subject and instead writing the prescription for whatever the pill-de-jour is.
- matheusmoreira 3y ago
  General practice and primary care are all about what's common. It's designed to soak up all the easy stuff that makes up 80% of the cases so that the specialists can deal with the hard complicated 20% stuff. If a doctor can't help you, they should still know who to refer you to. Can you give an example of a slightly unusual symptom that stumps doctors?
idopmstuff 3y ago
Both of those experiences exist, though - if you want to build applications from scratch, go join a really early stage startup. It's strange to me that people are surprised that when you're one of hundreds or thousands of software developers in an organization that you don't get to work on freewheeling projects based on what you want to do. Also, I don't think there's a platonic ideal of a software developer - there's a lot of mid-40s devs who have children and whose platonic ideal is a well-paying job with good work-life balance.
- madeofpalk 3y ago
  Turns out most of those early stage startups are Cancel-Membership-Button-Obfuscation-As-A-Service startups.
  - creer 3y ago
    Or "for some reason" have to use a brand new, unsorted framework.
athorax 3y ago
I think a lot of engineering jobs have a similar disconnect
KittenInABox 3y ago
> Do other careers have such a vast gap between the platonic ideal and the actual lived experience? Any NGO worker or nonprofit probably has this. Nurses, doctors, and veterinarians also.
VirusNewbie 3y ago
>Do other careers have such a vast gap between the platonic ideal and the actual lived experience? I'm not paid boatloads of money for 99% of my work, i'm paid boatloads of money for the 1% of the time I have to do something very impactful. If using the right data structure for your 'cancel prime membership button' means a .1% server load reduction and 1% higher reliability, it's worth paying Joe Blow Amazon SDE 300k a year. It's the same with Doctors. Most of the time they say "take two Tylenol and call me in the morning". Or maybe they're stitching someone up in the ER and they're doing just as good of a job as a nurse. But once and a while they save lives with their decision making.
matheusmoreira 3y ago
> Do other careers have such a vast gap between the platonic ideal and the actual lived experience? I used to really enjoy this blog from this american medical student. This guy seriously hated medical school and the worst part is I don't even blame him. https://web.archive.org/web/20101218031844/http://www.medschoolhell.com/archives/ https://web.archive.org/web/20101218031844/http://www.medsch...
dilyevsky 3y ago
Yes, doctors, lawyers and military careers come to mind. I’m sure there’s tons more
creer 3y ago
Yes. Pretty much all of them. Most jobs are more about the realistic situation on the ground. Very little of which is "platonic ideal"? Even if or when you get to have a whole team of assistants to do the menial stuff you don't consider part of your "platonic ideal", you'll find yourself in the management and coordination business. A good manager will shield you from some of this but most of the job IS this. People tend to talk about the fun stuff but the good news is, you are reading HN so you also hear plenty about the not fun stuff.
hiepph 3y ago
> The way most people talk about software engineering, you'd think they were some kind of open-source warrior building entire applications from scratch when really they're on the Cancel Prime Membership Button Obfuscation Enablement team at Amazon. True, if one apply most of the lessons in the article (e.g. "Nobody gives a f** about your clean code") to a well-established open source project, the maintainers will grind you to death.

perlgeek 3y ago

> Do other careers have such a vast gap between the platonic ideal and the actual lived experience? In the past few years I've got the impression that when I go to a doctor with a slightly unusual symptom, they are very much lost. It seems the average GP learned a whole lot at University, and 20 years later treats the same 50 common things (colds, cuts, high blood pressure, you name it) and doesn't really remember all the quirky and exciting stuff from uni. I'd guess that the more academic the education is, the more likely you fall into that pattern.

Balgair 3y ago
I've interfaced with a fair few MDs in the US behind the scenes, so to speak. The site nearly every MD in the US uses is called UpToDate: https://www.uptodate.com/login https://www.uptodate.com/login It's not really for laypeople, so you can't poke around in there (check your alumni benefits though, many associations have subscriptions). But, to give you an idea, the site is pretty much a diagnostician. You can just plug in symptoms, patient history and demographics, and it'll give you nearly everything that you need to know. Lots of best practices, research papers, summary papers, testimonials, etc. It's effectively an AI for MDs, and it's good. What I'm trying to say is that your first instinct is correct: The MDs that you're going to really are in fact idiots that can't even be arsed to use a web form.
- buildbot 3y ago
  Not sure why people are downvoting this - my partner is an MD and uses uptodate literally every few hours, when she's at home - I'm sure it's higher at the hospital/clinic. Some Doctors are checked out/lazy/make assumptions, just like everyone else.
  - matheusmoreira 3y ago
    Definitely. Resources like UpToDate are invaluable. Patient safety research proves it. Just double checking something to make sure reduces errors. Better not to do it in front of patients though. Many will assume you're incompetent if they see you doing it. Few will understand that you are a fallible human being who's using every possible resource to make up for it.
michaelcampbell 3y ago
I can't remember how long ago, but I read or heard about a few studies that show you're better off going to a freshly minted doctor, at least in the US. They'll not have had the time to build a cynicism around "what they learned is all they need to know". I know Dr's learn a lot throughout their career, but after they get into a practice they just don't have the time they did in medical school (or won't spend the time), and the trajectory flattens.
- manicennui 3y ago
  Or go to a doctor that is part of a top university system that does real research, such as Northwestern or Rush in Chicago.
  - buildbot 3y ago
    A research oriented doctor is going to have very little interest in anything but their research. So if you know you have a rare disease, sure. But most people do not. Go to a doctor from a hospital with acclaimed primary care, like University of Washington Medicine. Ranked #1: https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-medical-schools/university-of-washington-seattle-campus-04122 https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-medical-sch...
    - manicennui 3y ago
      I used Northwestern for years and my internal medicine doctor always seemed more up to date. The specialists he referred me to were often involved with the university in some capacity and seemed to be aware of very up to date info in their fields.
      - buildbot 3y ago
        Awesome! Good medical care is what everyone deserves
- tstrimple 3y ago
  It's the same in software and likely every industry. Yeah, you still have plenty of very senior folks who have adopted the cloud and are building things in modern ways and on the bleeding edge of things. Then you've got the crusty HN types who think a Hetzner VM and Postgres is the best way to solve all the problems in the world and javascript is the bane of all existence. I've met the 50 year old developer who has written nothing but Java enterprise apps for the last 20 years who are all but useless outside of their niche, and a 60 year old developer who is still as giddy as a child while he's playing with code generation models. If technology is your passion, it's far easier to stay up to date and stay relevant. If technology is just your chosen career, you've got to intentionally put in the effort to stay up to date or risk becoming out of touch with the industry. There are passionate doctors and career doctors. Passionate home builders and career home builders. Etc. Etc.
Rallen89 3y ago
>'d guess that the more academic the education is, the more likely you fall into that pattern. of treating the most comments stuff and being lost? Would have thought the opposite, no, or am I misunderstanding
waylandsmithers 3y ago
Yes- I've had the same experience... the same "Huh, that's weird" kind of unknowing response that I give my parents when their printer isn't working again
ejb999 3y ago
unfortunately, many (most?) doctors have simply become prescription writing machines - "got a problem? there is a pill for that", and if that pill doesn't work, we will try something else. Good luck finding a MD that actually wants you to be healthy and drug free - the system is setup to give you a prescription and hope that it works; doctors around me won't even broach the subject of suggesting you lose some weight or get more exercise or even just eat more healthy food - they just write a prescription to deal with the adverse affects of your poor lifestyle.
- matheusmoreira 3y ago
  In my experience, it's the opposite. Day in day out I tell patients to exercise and eat better. Some people manage to change their lifestyle, get better and even get off medications such as statins. Many don't and medication ends up being the only thing keeping things under control. Then there are the patients who will destroy you on social media when you tell them to take some responsibility because that's "intolerance" of their morbid obesity. Plenty of people out there looking for easy pill solutions to everything.
  - ejb999 3y ago
    Yep - I have several family members that work in primary care - many patients have filed formal complaints with the practice if the provider calls attention to the fact that someone is obese or is making unhealthy lifestyle choices and should make changes if they want to be healthier - one even threatening to sue if the office didn't take references to her chart that said she was clinically obese - so more and more providers are simply not broaching the subject and instead writing the prescription for whatever the pill-de-jour is.
matheusmoreira 3y ago
General practice and primary care are all about what's common. It's designed to soak up all the easy stuff that makes up 80% of the cases so that the specialists can deal with the hard complicated 20% stuff. If a doctor can't help you, they should still know who to refer you to. Can you give an example of a slightly unusual symptom that stumps doctors?

idopmstuff 3y ago

Both of those experiences exist, though - if you want to build applications from scratch, go join a really early stage startup. It's strange to me that people are surprised that when you're one of hundreds or thousands of software developers in an organization that you don't get to work on freewheeling projects based on what you want to do. Also, I don't think there's a platonic ideal of a software developer - there's a lot of mid-40s devs who have children and whose platonic ideal is a well-paying job with good work-life balance.

madeofpalk 3y ago
Turns out most of those early stage startups are Cancel-Membership-Button-Obfuscation-As-A-Service startups.
- creer 3y ago
  Or "for some reason" have to use a brand new, unsorted framework.

athorax 3y ago

I think a lot of engineering jobs have a similar disconnect

KittenInABox 3y ago

> Do other careers have such a vast gap between the platonic ideal and the actual lived experience? Any NGO worker or nonprofit probably has this. Nurses, doctors, and veterinarians also.

VirusNewbie 3y ago

>Do other careers have such a vast gap between the platonic ideal and the actual lived experience? I'm not paid boatloads of money for 99% of my work, i'm paid boatloads of money for the 1% of the time I have to do something very impactful. If using the right data structure for your 'cancel prime membership button' means a .1% server load reduction and 1% higher reliability, it's worth paying Joe Blow Amazon SDE 300k a year. It's the same with Doctors. Most of the time they say "take two Tylenol and call me in the morning". Or maybe they're stitching someone up in the ER and they're doing just as good of a job as a nurse. But once and a while they save lives with their decision making.

matheusmoreira 3y ago

> Do other careers have such a vast gap between the platonic ideal and the actual lived experience? I used to really enjoy this blog from this american medical student. This guy seriously hated medical school and the worst part is I don't even blame him. https://web.archive.org/web/20101218031844/http://www.medschoolhell.com/archives/ https://web.archive.org/web/20101218031844/http://www.medsch...

dilyevsky 3y ago

Yes, doctors, lawyers and military careers come to mind. I’m sure there’s tons more

creer 3y ago

Yes. Pretty much all of them. Most jobs are more about the realistic situation on the ground. Very little of which is "platonic ideal"? Even if or when you get to have a whole team of assistants to do the menial stuff you don't consider part of your "platonic ideal", you'll find yourself in the management and coordination business. A good manager will shield you from some of this but most of the job IS this. People tend to talk about the fun stuff but the good news is, you are reading HN so you also hear plenty about the not fun stuff.

hiepph 3y ago

> The way most people talk about software engineering, you'd think they were some kind of open-source warrior building entire applications from scratch when really they're on the Cancel Prime Membership Button Obfuscation Enablement team at Amazon. True, if one apply most of the lessons in the article (e.g. "Nobody gives a f** about your clean code") to a well-established open source project, the maintainers will grind you to death.