33 ms·

Total cost of ownership for evs is vastly lower than ices. The number of mechanical parts is two orders of magnitude less for an ev.

eppp 3y ago
And yet they cost a ton more. It is madness and incredibly frustrating.
- huytersd 3y ago
  They cost about 20% more, for now. That’s not a ton considering you can break even on gas alone in 2-3 years, depending on how you drive.
  - Glyptodon 3y ago
    I can't see how. New to new, a cheap ICE economy car can still run low $20s and your total fuel costs over 3 years will probably be under $2k. And even a cheaper EV like a Chevy Bolt won't make up the difference. It seems like the gap only gets worse when comparing higher up the price curve hybrids to their EV cousins.
    - p_j_w 3y ago
      They also have vastly lower maintenance and repair costs. Real analyses of this stuff has been done and EVs win every time.
      - Glyptodon 3y ago
        I totally believe this if the vehicles have similar initial costs, and I can imagine that if the EV has higher re-sale value used, it might help too. But I have a hard time seeing how you can make up the price difference between a relatively reliable compact hybrid and its EV version - take a Kia Niro (just because offhand I know it comes in EV and Hybrid): Hybrid is like $27k, EV is like $40k (though hybrid used to be more like $24k). If you own for 10 years what's going to eat that $13k difference? Just better resale in 10 years? Oil change once a year, a few medium repairs, and cost of gas vs electricity don't get you there.
    - QuarterReptile 3y ago
      Tempering my sibling comment, I could believe they probably have lower maintenance needs on more expensive stuff, but that's precisely who you're not selling with lower cost of ownership. I'm with you: my 10 year old car cost me 17k, and in the past 10 years I have spent no more than 7k on fuel. I've done annual oil changes, replaced a set of tires, and replaced a pump for windshield washer fluid one time. My electric co. has a tool for estimating your monthly fuel savings: $15 monthly for me. That's probably the cost of food my toddler smashes up and throws on the floor in the same period.
    - vel0city 3y ago
      At 13,000mi/yr (average US mileage), 30MPG, $4/gal, that's $1,733.33/yr. Same mileage, 3.5mi/kWh, $0.12/kWh, that's $445.71/yr.
      - Glyptodon 3y ago
        National average electric cost is above $0.12 kWh, I think closer to $0.16, on top of that I think tiered pricing is common. And hybrids often beat 30 mpg. For a car where electric is $40k and hybrid is $27k like a Kia Niro, it looks like your numbers would produce a payback period on the electric close to 10 years, but longer the less you drive. But that doesn't even get to including potential returns on the $13k saved at the beginning.
  - eppp 3y ago
    It is a ton more when the parent states how much cheaper and easier they are to manufacture. 100x fewer parts and yet they cost more? How does that make sense.
    - kube-system 3y ago
      One of the parts is rather expensive
    - deelowe 3y ago
      Because the resources to make batteries are expensive to mine and refine... But come on, is it really that hard to believe? Look up the internals of an ICE and automatic transmission and compare those to an electric motor and single stage gear box. We could debate over whether a battery pack is a single part or many, but still, those are completely potted and welded assemblies. Failures outside of normal wear are rare.
BeetleB 3y ago
Do you track your car expenses? I do. Here are numbers from 2011-2018 for a used 2003 car: Gas: $7200 Maintenance/Repairs: $2300 Note that maintenance includes things you'd do for EVs as well (e.g. new tires). That's $9500 in 7 years. Total spent on the car (including purchase price): $18500. The extra cost of a comparably sized EV is significantly more than my gas and repair costs. The numbers for my other cars is similar. Sorry, not buying the koolaid. I haven't included insurance, which will be a lot cheaper as well. For context, for my older car I pay $700/year for insurance, and that's with many of the benefits maxed out - I simply can't get more expensive insurance! For my other (newer) car it's more like $1200/year. Oh, and the TCO on Edmunds is full of $h*t.
- jedberg 3y ago
  You got really lucky on your maintenance then. Unless you're doing the oil changes yourself, those alone should have run you at least $1,000 (and probably more because you should have been changing your air filters too). And it sounds like you never had to do brakes (which come up sooner on ICE cars because EVs have regenerative braking). But to be clear you're an outlier. Most 2003 cars can't get away with such low maintenance costs.
  - BeetleB 3y ago
    > You got really lucky on your maintenance then. I keep hearing this. I've apparently been lucky for 20 years and with 4 cars. I'm a really lucky guy. Or, perhaps, I research which cars are reliable, and get a good mechanic to check them out before I buy them. > Unless you're doing the oil changes yourself, those alone should have run you at least $1,000 In that time period, an oil change was $20-30. Yes, it costs a lot more for some cars (e.g. $80 for one of my other cars). Also, if you did it every 3 months or 3000 miles you've bought into the propaganda. Do it on the schedule specified in your car's manual. For all my cars, that's every 6 months, and 5000 or 6000 miles. For heavy usage (10,000 miles for non-heavy, but almost everyone falls into the "heavy" category). Oh, and I'm not a big car guy. I know almost nothing about doing maintenance myself (other than adding wiper fluid). I do whatever the mechanic recommends. Find a good mechanic, and stay away from official dealerships. > And it sounds like you never had to do brakes On the car I quoted, I did. In 2014. Cost me under $420. > Most 2003 cars can't get away with such low maintenance costs. That car got totaled in 2018. So I replaced it with another 2003 car of similar miles as the one that was totaled. In the last 5 years I've spent $3000 on maintenance/repairs. That's more than the 8 years prior, but some of it is just due to inflation and labor costs. Oil change costs, for example, almost doubled. Gas costs should be higher per year because gas is more expensive and the car I replaced it with is a lot less efficient. But at the same time, COVID brought gas expenses down (less driving). I average $1000/year in gas costs. I expect it will go up soon due to needing to drive more now. > But to be clear you're an outlier. Sure, I'm an outlier in that I actually track my expenses. Everyone I know who tracks auto expenses has turned out to be an outlier ;-)
poisonborz 3y ago
Except no one knows in what shape batteries will be in 10 years (current 10yo evs are no comparison). Usually there is a 8y guarantee on battery packs but wonder what that covers. Replacing batteries will be overly costly, if you can even get the parts and a mechanic to do it for you.
- callalex 3y ago
  I first heard this fear mongering in 2001 when I bought a Prius. It wasn’t true then, and it’s extra not true now, over 20 years later.
  - slaw 3y ago
    Prius has 1.3kWh Ni-Cad battery, slightly bigger than my bicycle battery.
- deelowe 3y ago
  We have a pretty good idea at this point. Batteries should last longer than the average lifespan of the car. There will be a bathtub curve for sure, but generally, it's not a huge issue. My 2013 leaf battery still has 80% and while its an issue for the leaf and it's already dismal range, it's not a huge concern on cars that have 100s of miles of range.
DrThunder 3y ago
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eppp 3y ago

And yet they cost a ton more. It is madness and incredibly frustrating.

huytersd 3y ago
They cost about 20% more, for now. That’s not a ton considering you can break even on gas alone in 2-3 years, depending on how you drive.
- Glyptodon 3y ago
  I can't see how. New to new, a cheap ICE economy car can still run low $20s and your total fuel costs over 3 years will probably be under $2k. And even a cheaper EV like a Chevy Bolt won't make up the difference. It seems like the gap only gets worse when comparing higher up the price curve hybrids to their EV cousins.
  - p_j_w 3y ago
    They also have vastly lower maintenance and repair costs. Real analyses of this stuff has been done and EVs win every time.
    - Glyptodon 3y ago
      I totally believe this if the vehicles have similar initial costs, and I can imagine that if the EV has higher re-sale value used, it might help too. But I have a hard time seeing how you can make up the price difference between a relatively reliable compact hybrid and its EV version - take a Kia Niro (just because offhand I know it comes in EV and Hybrid): Hybrid is like $27k, EV is like $40k (though hybrid used to be more like $24k). If you own for 10 years what's going to eat that $13k difference? Just better resale in 10 years? Oil change once a year, a few medium repairs, and cost of gas vs electricity don't get you there.
  - QuarterReptile 3y ago
    Tempering my sibling comment, I could believe they probably have lower maintenance needs on more expensive stuff, but that's precisely who you're not selling with lower cost of ownership. I'm with you: my 10 year old car cost me 17k, and in the past 10 years I have spent no more than 7k on fuel. I've done annual oil changes, replaced a set of tires, and replaced a pump for windshield washer fluid one time. My electric co. has a tool for estimating your monthly fuel savings: $15 monthly for me. That's probably the cost of food my toddler smashes up and throws on the floor in the same period.
  - vel0city 3y ago
    At 13,000mi/yr (average US mileage), 30MPG, $4/gal, that's $1,733.33/yr. Same mileage, 3.5mi/kWh, $0.12/kWh, that's $445.71/yr.
    - Glyptodon 3y ago
      National average electric cost is above $0.12 kWh, I think closer to $0.16, on top of that I think tiered pricing is common. And hybrids often beat 30 mpg. For a car where electric is $40k and hybrid is $27k like a Kia Niro, it looks like your numbers would produce a payback period on the electric close to 10 years, but longer the less you drive. But that doesn't even get to including potential returns on the $13k saved at the beginning.
- eppp 3y ago
  It is a ton more when the parent states how much cheaper and easier they are to manufacture. 100x fewer parts and yet they cost more? How does that make sense.
  - kube-system 3y ago
    One of the parts is rather expensive
  - deelowe 3y ago
    Because the resources to make batteries are expensive to mine and refine... But come on, is it really that hard to believe? Look up the internals of an ICE and automatic transmission and compare those to an electric motor and single stage gear box. We could debate over whether a battery pack is a single part or many, but still, those are completely potted and welded assemblies. Failures outside of normal wear are rare.

BeetleB 3y ago

Do you track your car expenses? I do. Here are numbers from 2011-2018 for a used 2003 car: Gas: $7200 Maintenance/Repairs: $2300 Note that maintenance includes things you'd do for EVs as well (e.g. new tires). That's $9500 in 7 years. Total spent on the car (including purchase price): $18500. The extra cost of a comparably sized EV is significantly more than my gas and repair costs. The numbers for my other cars is similar. Sorry, not buying the koolaid. I haven't included insurance, which will be a lot cheaper as well. For context, for my older car I pay $700/year for insurance, and that's with many of the benefits maxed out - I simply can't get more expensive insurance! For my other (newer) car it's more like $1200/year. Oh, and the TCO on Edmunds is full of $h*t.

jedberg 3y ago
You got really lucky on your maintenance then. Unless you're doing the oil changes yourself, those alone should have run you at least $1,000 (and probably more because you should have been changing your air filters too). And it sounds like you never had to do brakes (which come up sooner on ICE cars because EVs have regenerative braking). But to be clear you're an outlier. Most 2003 cars can't get away with such low maintenance costs.
- BeetleB 3y ago
  > You got really lucky on your maintenance then. I keep hearing this. I've apparently been lucky for 20 years and with 4 cars. I'm a really lucky guy. Or, perhaps, I research which cars are reliable, and get a good mechanic to check them out before I buy them. > Unless you're doing the oil changes yourself, those alone should have run you at least $1,000 In that time period, an oil change was $20-30. Yes, it costs a lot more for some cars (e.g. $80 for one of my other cars). Also, if you did it every 3 months or 3000 miles you've bought into the propaganda. Do it on the schedule specified in your car's manual. For all my cars, that's every 6 months, and 5000 or 6000 miles. For heavy usage (10,000 miles for non-heavy, but almost everyone falls into the "heavy" category). Oh, and I'm not a big car guy. I know almost nothing about doing maintenance myself (other than adding wiper fluid). I do whatever the mechanic recommends. Find a good mechanic, and stay away from official dealerships. > And it sounds like you never had to do brakes On the car I quoted, I did. In 2014. Cost me under $420. > Most 2003 cars can't get away with such low maintenance costs. That car got totaled in 2018. So I replaced it with another 2003 car of similar miles as the one that was totaled. In the last 5 years I've spent $3000 on maintenance/repairs. That's more than the 8 years prior, but some of it is just due to inflation and labor costs. Oil change costs, for example, almost doubled. Gas costs should be higher per year because gas is more expensive and the car I replaced it with is a lot less efficient. But at the same time, COVID brought gas expenses down (less driving). I average $1000/year in gas costs. I expect it will go up soon due to needing to drive more now. > But to be clear you're an outlier. Sure, I'm an outlier in that I actually track my expenses. Everyone I know who tracks auto expenses has turned out to be an outlier ;-)

poisonborz 3y ago

Except no one knows in what shape batteries will be in 10 years (current 10yo evs are no comparison). Usually there is a 8y guarantee on battery packs but wonder what that covers. Replacing batteries will be overly costly, if you can even get the parts and a mechanic to do it for you.

callalex 3y ago
I first heard this fear mongering in 2001 when I bought a Prius. It wasn’t true then, and it’s extra not true now, over 20 years later.
- slaw 3y ago
  Prius has 1.3kWh Ni-Cad battery, slightly bigger than my bicycle battery.
deelowe 3y ago
We have a pretty good idea at this point. Batteries should last longer than the average lifespan of the car. There will be a bathtub curve for sure, but generally, it's not a huge issue. My 2013 leaf battery still has 80% and while its an issue for the leaf and it's already dismal range, it's not a huge concern on cars that have 100s of miles of range.

DrThunder 3y ago

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