6 ms·

Yes, but they got many things right in the Netherlands even with an incredibly low percentage of people living in flats. Bikes, not cars, please.

VancouverMan 3y ago
The feasibility of widespread bike usage doesn't just depend on density. It depends a lot on a region's weather, too. Amsterdam, for example, happens to have weather that's relatively compatible with biking, all throughout the year. On the other hand, for four to six months of the year, most areas of Canada, and even a good portion of the US, definitely don't. While a very small handful of people can handle biking when it's consistently -10 °C (14 °F) or colder out, possibly through 10 cm (4") or more of uncleared snow/slush, and possibly on ice, the vast majority of people can't and won't. The summer isn't necessarily any better. The cities in southern Ontario, for example, where many Canadians live, can become surprisingly hot and humid for weeks at a time, and biking isn't pleasant then. Given those conditions, people will definitely try to drive instead of biking.
- bluefirebrand 3y ago
  Even in perfect conditions there's a lot of reasons not to bike. Distances are more difficult, you can't bring someone with you, your carrying capacity is much smaller for shopping trips. It also just plain takes longer to get anywhere and people just don't like spending more time than they have to on errands.
  - Mawr 3y ago
    - Ebikes let you cover great distances with little effort. - You can have someone ride on the backseat or in the cargo space of a cargo bike. [1] - You'd be hard pressed to come up with a shopping load that won't fit on a cargo bike. [1] Then there's the cost vs a car [2], which will likely make up for any inconvenience. Of course, you do need at least decent bike infrastructure for this to be realistic. [1]: https://youtu.be/rQhzEnWCgHA?t=470 https://youtu.be/rQhzEnWCgHA?t=470 [2]: https://youtu.be/rQhzEnWCgHA?t=321 https://youtu.be/rQhzEnWCgHA?t=321
    - bluGill 3y ago
      My car is a lot less effort that my ebike. And the car is faster as well. I ride my ebike for the trips too long for the acoustic bike, but there are still a lot of trips not in reasonable ebike range that I make.
      - Mawr 3y ago
        Sounds great, that's pretty much the goal - limiting car trips to the ones that actually require a car.
      - bumby 3y ago
        Hell, my motorcycle was enough of a hassle compared to my car to forgo riding it often. Wearing gear, packing my lunch and everything else for a days work into saddlebags, and dealing with the weather was a pain compared to just hopping in my car. It would be worse on a bicycle. At least in a car I can listen to a podcast without feeling like I'm making a tradeoff with safety.
    - bluefirebrand 3y ago
      Imo, you are no longer talking about cycling once you're talking about ebikes and other motorized vehicles. You're talking about convincing people to buy worse cars. Motorbikes and mopeds and scooters already exist and people largely don't choose them over cars. Changing it to "electric scooter" or ebike doesn't suddenly make it more appealing. And you certainly lose the "it's better for physical fitness and health" aspect once you're talking about motorized vehicles.
      - estebank 3y ago
        > And you certainly lose the "it's better for physical fitness and health" aspect once you're talking about motorized vehicles. > Because electric bikes are less physically demanding on joints and muscles, they not only bring in riders who might otherwise be inactive, but they also offer the opportunity for people to ride longer periods of time and go greater distances. That leads to more folks using e-bikes as an option for commuting or running errands. Although users won’t find themselves doing the sort of vigorous physical activity uphill mountain biking or even hot yoga entails, e-bike use has been shown to deliver the sort of moderate physical activity most doctors recommend. https://www.peopleforbikes.org/news/the-health-benefits-of-electric-bikes https://www.peopleforbikes.org/news/the-health-benefits-of-e... The exercise provided by ebikes when all things are equal is lower than regular bikes, but all things are not equal as people with ebikes tend to ride more day to day (on aggregate).
- Qwertious 3y ago
  >On the other hand, for four to six months of the year, most areas of Canada, and even a good portion of the US, definitely don't. Myth. Why Canadians Can't Bike in the Winter (but Finnish people can): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU
  - HDThoreaun 3y ago
    No, it's really not a myth. Biking in the winter is not fun unless you have completely enclosed paths. Finnish culture means that people do it anyway, but that wouldn't fly in American culture, no matter how good the snow removal and bike lanes are. I say this as someone who bikes year round in a northern city, the vast majority of people have no interest in biking in the cold.
- bluGill 3y ago
  In general the farther north you go in North America the more people on bikes you find. Most people do not bike when it is near freezing or below, there are a few.
- dotcoma 3y ago
  Calling Amsterdam an ideal city for cycling is a stretch. It's coldish, it rains quite a lot and it's very windy. Things would be a lot easier for people on bikes here in Milan, Italy where I live... except that they are not. It's not so safe during rush hour, and it's full of people who would rather take their stupid car instead of walking half a mile. Distances are larger in North America, but climate-wise people cycle more in NYC or in Minneapolis than they do in Atlanta or in Dallas. To sum it up: make cycling as safe as possible, and discourage car use, and especially car abuse -- picking up kids from school with an SUV, for example.
jorvi 3y ago
Except our distaste for flats has plummeted us into one of the worst housing crises of the entire world. Literally grinding our entire society to a halt, from students to young couples to prisoners to elders to cured long-term patients, everyone is trapped.
- rangestransform 3y ago
  I don't actually think americans have a distaste for flats in general, but that some of them felt the need to impose their distaste for flats beyond the borders of their own land
  - jorvi 3y ago
    I’m talking about The Netherlands haha

VancouverMan 3y ago

The feasibility of widespread bike usage doesn't just depend on density. It depends a lot on a region's weather, too. Amsterdam, for example, happens to have weather that's relatively compatible with biking, all throughout the year. On the other hand, for four to six months of the year, most areas of Canada, and even a good portion of the US, definitely don't. While a very small handful of people can handle biking when it's consistently -10 °C (14 °F) or colder out, possibly through 10 cm (4") or more of uncleared snow/slush, and possibly on ice, the vast majority of people can't and won't. The summer isn't necessarily any better. The cities in southern Ontario, for example, where many Canadians live, can become surprisingly hot and humid for weeks at a time, and biking isn't pleasant then. Given those conditions, people will definitely try to drive instead of biking.

bluefirebrand 3y ago
Even in perfect conditions there's a lot of reasons not to bike. Distances are more difficult, you can't bring someone with you, your carrying capacity is much smaller for shopping trips. It also just plain takes longer to get anywhere and people just don't like spending more time than they have to on errands.
- Mawr 3y ago
  - Ebikes let you cover great distances with little effort. - You can have someone ride on the backseat or in the cargo space of a cargo bike. [1] - You'd be hard pressed to come up with a shopping load that won't fit on a cargo bike. [1] Then there's the cost vs a car [2], which will likely make up for any inconvenience. Of course, you do need at least decent bike infrastructure for this to be realistic. [1]: https://youtu.be/rQhzEnWCgHA?t=470 https://youtu.be/rQhzEnWCgHA?t=470 [2]: https://youtu.be/rQhzEnWCgHA?t=321 https://youtu.be/rQhzEnWCgHA?t=321
  - bluGill 3y ago
    My car is a lot less effort that my ebike. And the car is faster as well. I ride my ebike for the trips too long for the acoustic bike, but there are still a lot of trips not in reasonable ebike range that I make.
    - Mawr 3y ago
      Sounds great, that's pretty much the goal - limiting car trips to the ones that actually require a car.
    - bumby 3y ago
      Hell, my motorcycle was enough of a hassle compared to my car to forgo riding it often. Wearing gear, packing my lunch and everything else for a days work into saddlebags, and dealing with the weather was a pain compared to just hopping in my car. It would be worse on a bicycle. At least in a car I can listen to a podcast without feeling like I'm making a tradeoff with safety.
  - bluefirebrand 3y ago
    Imo, you are no longer talking about cycling once you're talking about ebikes and other motorized vehicles. You're talking about convincing people to buy worse cars. Motorbikes and mopeds and scooters already exist and people largely don't choose them over cars. Changing it to "electric scooter" or ebike doesn't suddenly make it more appealing. And you certainly lose the "it's better for physical fitness and health" aspect once you're talking about motorized vehicles.
    - estebank 3y ago
      > And you certainly lose the "it's better for physical fitness and health" aspect once you're talking about motorized vehicles. > Because electric bikes are less physically demanding on joints and muscles, they not only bring in riders who might otherwise be inactive, but they also offer the opportunity for people to ride longer periods of time and go greater distances. That leads to more folks using e-bikes as an option for commuting or running errands. Although users won’t find themselves doing the sort of vigorous physical activity uphill mountain biking or even hot yoga entails, e-bike use has been shown to deliver the sort of moderate physical activity most doctors recommend. https://www.peopleforbikes.org/news/the-health-benefits-of-electric-bikes https://www.peopleforbikes.org/news/the-health-benefits-of-e... The exercise provided by ebikes when all things are equal is lower than regular bikes, but all things are not equal as people with ebikes tend to ride more day to day (on aggregate).
Qwertious 3y ago
>On the other hand, for four to six months of the year, most areas of Canada, and even a good portion of the US, definitely don't. Myth. Why Canadians Can't Bike in the Winter (but Finnish people can): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU
- HDThoreaun 3y ago
  No, it's really not a myth. Biking in the winter is not fun unless you have completely enclosed paths. Finnish culture means that people do it anyway, but that wouldn't fly in American culture, no matter how good the snow removal and bike lanes are. I say this as someone who bikes year round in a northern city, the vast majority of people have no interest in biking in the cold.
bluGill 3y ago
In general the farther north you go in North America the more people on bikes you find. Most people do not bike when it is near freezing or below, there are a few.
dotcoma 3y ago
Calling Amsterdam an ideal city for cycling is a stretch. It's coldish, it rains quite a lot and it's very windy. Things would be a lot easier for people on bikes here in Milan, Italy where I live... except that they are not. It's not so safe during rush hour, and it's full of people who would rather take their stupid car instead of walking half a mile. Distances are larger in North America, but climate-wise people cycle more in NYC or in Minneapolis than they do in Atlanta or in Dallas. To sum it up: make cycling as safe as possible, and discourage car use, and especially car abuse -- picking up kids from school with an SUV, for example.

jorvi 3y ago

Except our distaste for flats has plummeted us into one of the worst housing crises of the entire world. Literally grinding our entire society to a halt, from students to young couples to prisoners to elders to cured long-term patients, everyone is trapped.

rangestransform 3y ago
I don't actually think americans have a distaste for flats in general, but that some of them felt the need to impose their distaste for flats beyond the borders of their own land
- jorvi 3y ago
  I’m talking about The Netherlands haha