4 ms·

Disclaimer: I'm one of the founders of Ferrous Systems To some extend I agree, but from our conversations with OEMs, Tier 1 and Tier 2 suppliers we do see a si

Disclaimer: I'm one of the founders of Ferrous Systems To some extend I agree, but from our conversations with OEMs, Tier 1 and Tier 2 suppliers we do see a significant interest in moving to rust, much more than moving to a new C/C++ version. The reasoning is that moving to a new C/C++ version is an incremental change, but moving to rust signifies a jump to a different tech level (let's set aside whether that's true on a technical level or not, I'm talking about perception). One of the signifiers is that we were able to qualify the rust language as it exists, with no such restrictions such as Misra C etc. So no "reduce use of pointers" etc. The other things that's helping is regulatory pressure. The CISA, DARPA etc are all advocating strongly in favor of moving to memory safe languages, and for the chunk of the market that used C/C++ before, rust is a pretty good offering there: It binds to C both ways, that means not only can you call C code from rust, but also the other way round - you can build a component in rust and integrate it in your existing firmware. That's a rare capability. Chipset and ecosystem support are IMO the biggest hurdles at the moment, but with Ferrocene as a qualified compiler, at least that one bar is removed. It's still a long way to go and a lot of work ahead of us :).

pjmlp 3y ago
I see human behavior a more problematic issue to overcome than the toolchains, hence why I mentioned the toolings being more modern than what many are willing to adopt. Looking forward to regulatory pressure to help improving the situation, not only regarding the adoption of modern safer languages, but also to "just" adopt modern practices and tools while coding in C and C++. Already changing the mentality from unsafe at any speed, to quality matters, would be a big improvement. A plus from safer languages that aren't copy-paste compatible with C, is that C style programming is already taken out, so we don't need to spend time creating SonarQube rules and forcing them into teams. Good luck with the Ferrocene effort.
- Xylakant 3y ago
  > I see human behavior a more problematic issue to overcome than the toolchains, hence why I mentioned the toolings being more modern than what many are willing to adopt. I absolutely agree. I agree that this is what's holding back adoption of new tooling the most. However, the impression that I get from our conversations is that a new C/C++ is seen as "more of the old thing" while rust is considered a break with the old thing, something new with substantial risk, but also substantial upsides. This perception helps when it comes to considering an adoption.
  - cryptonector 3y ago
    We need an industry-wide break with the old thing. There have been enough problems caused by crappy unmaintainable spaghetti code full of UB. Now, a new thing (Rust) doesn't mean you'll get better code in every way, but at least in some ways.
- rdsubhas 3y ago
  To be frank, this seems to be a general comment on rust as a language itself, than ferrocene. One would instead start from an observation that rust has been filling a real need/gap in the market which can't be explained merely by human behavior alone, and looks like it's been quite successful at doing that.
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    Yes and? That is a challenge, that Ferrocene alongside plenty of other companies, including those that tried to push C++ as a safer C, have to deal with. There have been safer languages on that domain, like Ada, which for various reasons did not take off as expected, and it wasn't only due to compiler prices. Dealing with human psicology from folks that aren't even willing to update themselves beyond the toolchains used 30 years ago even though more recent ones are available, it is a challenge, moreso when the newcomers need a full rewrite, instead of updating the compiler version. I am on the Ferrocene side, just like I enjoy the surviving 7 Ada vendors are still around, PTC, Aicas and microEJ keep selling their Real Time Java, or that Astrobe its Oberon compiler, MIKROE their mikroBasic and mikroPascal compilers. The more that challege the status quo, the better.

pjmlp 3y ago

I see human behavior a more problematic issue to overcome than the toolchains, hence why I mentioned the toolings being more modern than what many are willing to adopt. Looking forward to regulatory pressure to help improving the situation, not only regarding the adoption of modern safer languages, but also to "just" adopt modern practices and tools while coding in C and C++. Already changing the mentality from unsafe at any speed, to quality matters, would be a big improvement. A plus from safer languages that aren't copy-paste compatible with C, is that C style programming is already taken out, so we don't need to spend time creating SonarQube rules and forcing them into teams. Good luck with the Ferrocene effort.

Xylakant 3y ago
> I see human behavior a more problematic issue to overcome than the toolchains, hence why I mentioned the toolings being more modern than what many are willing to adopt. I absolutely agree. I agree that this is what's holding back adoption of new tooling the most. However, the impression that I get from our conversations is that a new C/C++ is seen as "more of the old thing" while rust is considered a break with the old thing, something new with substantial risk, but also substantial upsides. This perception helps when it comes to considering an adoption.
- cryptonector 3y ago
  We need an industry-wide break with the old thing. There have been enough problems caused by crappy unmaintainable spaghetti code full of UB. Now, a new thing (Rust) doesn't mean you'll get better code in every way, but at least in some ways.
rdsubhas 3y ago
To be frank, this seems to be a general comment on rust as a language itself, than ferrocene. One would instead start from an observation that rust has been filling a real need/gap in the market which can't be explained merely by human behavior alone, and looks like it's been quite successful at doing that.
- pjmlp 3y ago
  Yes and? That is a challenge, that Ferrocene alongside plenty of other companies, including those that tried to push C++ as a safer C, have to deal with. There have been safer languages on that domain, like Ada, which for various reasons did not take off as expected, and it wasn't only due to compiler prices. Dealing with human psicology from folks that aren't even willing to update themselves beyond the toolchains used 30 years ago even though more recent ones are available, it is a challenge, moreso when the newcomers need a full rewrite, instead of updating the compiler version. I am on the Ferrocene side, just like I enjoy the surviving 7 Ada vendors are still around, PTC, Aicas and microEJ keep selling their Real Time Java, or that Astrobe its Oberon compiler, MIKROE their mikroBasic and mikroPascal compilers. The more that challege the status quo, the better.