12 ms·

Facebook just started requiring EU users to choose: privacy or €9.99/month

54 points by nerdbert 3y ago

I tapped the Facebook app to see how the faraway folks are doing, and the screen was taken over by an un-closable window that required me to agree to either give them free reign to share my data with advertisers (something I was previously able to disable in the privacy center) or pony up €10/month: "You need to make a choice to continue using Facebook Laws are changing in your region, so we’re introducing a new choice about how we use your info for ads. You’ll learn more about what each option means for you before you confirm your choice. Your choice will apply to the accounts in the accounts center. - Subscribe to use without ads Subscribe to use your Facebook account without ads, starting at €9.99/month (inclusive of applicable taxes). Your info won’t be used for ads. - Use for free with ads Discover products and brands through personalized ads, while using your Facebook account for free. Your info will be used for ads." So I guess that's it for me. Deleted the app. Is this message going to all EU users? Or only those who have restricted data sharing in their FB settings? I can't imagine that many people who had taken the trouble to opt out of info sharing are going to be willing to pay €120/year for Facebook. I wonder whether they'll back down. They were showing me plenty of ads, just theoretically not tightly targeted to my "interests". Surely they still made more off that than it's costing to have me as a user.

nerdbert 3y ago
I know, I know, 'free rein' not 'free reign'.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
1vuio0pswjnm7 3y ago
The choice is not between privacy and a susbscription. The subscription does not include the right to be free from surveillance and data collection by Facebook. Further, there are more than two choices. A third choice is not to decide. Yes, they will back down. It makes no sense to _block_ users simply because they will not consent to targeted ads. Users who consent will get targeted ads. Users that do not consent will get non-targeted ads. Users who subscribe get fleeced. Instead of the app try using FB without Javascript: https://mbasic.facebook.com https://mbasic.facebook.com FB must have "growth" to keep Wall Street happy. _Blocking users_ is inconsistent with that objective. FB will back down but give it some time while they are forced to run this experiment.
- ActorNightly 3y ago
  >It makes no sense to block users simply because they will not consent to targeted ads. It absolutely 100% does. Advertisers in todays age only spend on targeted advertising because it not only works, but the converse of that (spamming users with random ads) degrades user experience.
  - meiraleal 3y ago
    > but the converse of that (spamming users with random ads) degrades user experience The whole point of the discussion is that directed ads degraded user experience. What is your point then?
    - ActorNightly 3y ago
      >Directed ads degraded user experience. This is literally propaganda for people pushing for control of the internet through the idea of "privacy" There isn't a world where someone is using and app, and would prefer to see generic advertisements versus finding out about deals on products they care about or new products that they may be interested in. Unless of course you are bought into the bullshit bogeyman of "oh no, company is building a profile on me, that MUST mean they are going to use it for nefarious means", despite no evidence of this being true, ever. If you believe this, then you either virtue signaling off the ideology that companies and capitalism is evil, or you personally don't feel like you have enough self control to make decisions on your own despite what is being shown to you, and if so you really shouldn't have a say or vote in this.
      - nerdbert 3y ago
        Is it so hard to believe that other people may have different opinions from yours? I've never knowingly clicked on an ad in my life. I am very aware of how law enforcement, political consultants, and other organizations purchase targeting data from ad companies. I don't want to be part of it because I don't want to be part of it.
      - meiraleal 3y ago
a2128 3y ago
Which country are you from? A family member in Lithuania has gotten this popup as well, but surprisingly it was asking for a whole €12.99/month instead of €9.99/month. Initially I had assumed it would be €9.99/mo everywhere, or at least cheaper in countries where people don't earn as much.
- nerdbert 3y ago
  I think it asked for €12.99 on mobile, then I deleted the app, then it asked for €9.99 on desktop. Maybe they're experimenting with prices too. I'm from the Netherlands.
  - soueuls 3y ago
    Probably because iOS is taking a 30% cut, so they just put the price higher on mobile.
    - ablation 3y ago
      Yes, Apple and Google’s extra charges: https://www.techradar.com/computing/software/instagram-and-facebook-get-ad-free-subscriptions-in-the-eu-but-theyre-pricey https://www.techradar.com/computing/software/instagram-and-f...
ActorNightly 3y ago
Honestly, at this point, I wish all established social media would just go to subscription models so the hands aren't tied by advertisers in terms of moderation. Itl greatly cut down on spam (the longer people stay on, the greater the cost of a ban is).
speedgoose 3y ago
This kind of choice have been implemented by webedia since a while. Though at a lower price, 2€/month. You can see it on https://jeuxvideo.com https://jeuxvideo.com for example. Some people were saying it’s not legal and it would go away quickly, but it’s still there and it might be legal.
- Nextgrid 3y ago
  > Some people were saying it’s not legal and it would go away quickly, but it’s still there and it might be legal. It took 5 years for Facebook's blatant GDPR infringement to be addressed, so give it another 5 years and we might finally see a binding decision on this.
Havoc 3y ago
Does this cover the other meta properties as well?
- nerdbert 3y ago
  I believe it's coming to Instagram soon. Haven't heard about plans for Whatsapp or Messenger. Threads isn't in Europe anyway.
_trackno5 3y ago
New EU regulation is forcing Meta to offer users an ad-free alternative. That’s why they are doing this. Meta’s revenue per user is around 40 USD iirc. Tbf, as much as people like whining they definitely get 12 bucks a month worth of entertainment off of Facebook and Instagram. People will easily spend 4-6h on social media daily. The reality is that this move will just prove that people like to talk but they are not willing to pay for their “freedom”.
- meiraleal 3y ago
  > People will easily spend 4-6h on social media daily. people will easily spend no time there too if their algorithms weren't tuned to be addicted. Which can easily be decided to be illegal in many countries based on the current laws already existing - but those companies will spend billions of dollars and use their brainwashing algorithms to prevent that. The brainwashing is so strong that it goes out of the social media border and overflow to every corner of the web, including HN. But fear no, _tracno5, we don't NEED Meta.
  - _trackno5 3y ago
    Sure you don’t NEED meta. But it still offers value to their users. Regardless of their “addictive” design, you can’t deny that people want what they (and other social media) offer. It would be absurd to say they don’t add any value to people’s lives. We’re not talking about heroin here. You can always just delete all your accounts and live an unplugged life. And now you have an option to get all the upsides of social media minus the downsides of being tracked/advertised for less than the price of a pizza
  - qeternity 3y ago
    > Which can easily be decided to be illegal in many countries based on the current laws already existing Sorry which laws are those? And for the billions of people with free will who use these services, you know what's better for them than they do?
    - meiraleal 3y ago
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
chippyty 3y ago
I quit facebook, and voila' my privacy concerns are gone at once. I also quit whatsapp. I self host my email since years, so i don't have to use other people computers and let them read my emails. I also self host an xmpp server for chatting with my friends. You know it seems to me that people spend a lot of time trying to solve a non existing problem, in this endless entropy. Just let go, already.
- themoonisachees 3y ago
  Any tips on self-hosting email?
  - bendews 3y ago
    unless the account isn't important - don't. By the time you have a setup that isn't at the mercy of ISP outages, blackouts, misconfigurations etc. you have invested a load of time and money for not much gain.
    - janandonly 3y ago
      Which makes me wonder: how hard would It be to offer an email service as a self-hosted app? So you install this on a home always-on RaspberryPI or something and, after filling out some details, it just works. Would that be possible at all? Some scripts that in the background get the right certificates and set the right records and so on should be possible, no?
      - themoonisachees 3y ago
        From what I gather, yes, that would work, but no, it wouldn't. Apparently all non FAANG mailservers are one misstep away from being put on all blocklists in perpetuity with minimal chances of appeal.
      - nerdbert 3y ago
        There's so much babysitting required. I've managed to wean all but one of my clients off self-hosted email. They are paranoid and insist on keeping it in-house. It's such a big time suck to deal with spam filter tuning and blacklist removal requests and the like, but they keep paying the hourly rates for it.
gumballindie 3y ago
For people that pay, do they still use their data - behaviour, pictures, interactions - to train so called ais? If so this needs addressing, facebook should pay them instead.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
awiesenhofer 3y ago
I wonder if a subscription will also mean they stop showing you "suggested posts" in your feed. Since they are too basically ads based on your data (and similarly irritating as ads)
- Nextgrid 3y ago
  I would register and subscribe to this if I could just have Facebook with no suggested/algorithmic content nor any other tricks designed to encourage "engagement".
zwaps 3y ago
I like this a lot if they really disable tracking and so on. To be fair, it’s what a lot if us asked for.
thiago_fm 3y ago
"The discount is bigger if you don't buy it." -- delete those Apps, so you don't pay them with your data or your $10/month. Instead, call your parents, the people you care about, and get them to spend time with you. Send them postcards, and make them know you genuinely care. Meta even lets you download Messenger without Facebook. The same is true for Whatsapp. Just use them for communication if you must. There's no reason why anybody needs social media on their phone or in their life.
- MarkusWandel 3y ago
  Actually... Facebook did a full about-face (for me at least) recently. Having forced you to use a separate messenger app on mobile for a few years, they now disabled the messenger app and re-integrated messaging into the main app. Probably because people will see more ads this way.
6510 3y ago
With a paid product service shall be different.
antman 3y ago
I guess one can accept and at the end make a gdpr request to have their data removed
- Nextgrid 3y ago
  Facebook does not comply with the GDPR in total impunity, thanks to the corrupt/incompetent Irish DPA: https://web.archive.org/web/20230527122955/https://ruben.verborgh.org/facebook/ https://web.archive.org/web/20230527122955/https://ruben.ver...
ViewTrick1002 3y ago
Seems like a true consent based "Reject all" button is a critical danger to Facebook's business model since they are currently in violation of privacy rights in the EU after their last attempt at a legal basis was struck down. They are basing this subscribe or ad based model on a non-binding comment in a judgement last spring. Should hopefully only be a matter of time until it is ruled illegal. https://noyb.eu/en/meta-facebook-instagram-move-pay-your-rights-approach https://noyb.eu/en/meta-facebook-instagram-move-pay-your-rig...
georgeplusplus 3y ago
These tech companies are literally the product of their own demise. Most started with tons of VC money pouring in and operating at huge loses to attract large customer base. There customers got used to having things for free and now to change that mindset is going to ruin a lot of these companies product and force them to another platform. The problem this time for tech industry is there's not a lot of VC money floating around to create new overvalued service's.
ChrisArchitect 3y ago
Tell HN:
ChrisArchitect 3y ago
Lots of discussion over here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38068635 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38068635
j4yav 3y ago
Deleted my Facebook and Instagram accounts, I barely used them anyway and this was a good push to finally do it.
Mrirazak1 3y ago
My question is will they still collate all that data. There is no point in charging us to just have our data harvested like Twitter is doing rn. I think they should make that clear, if so then it’s not the worst idea in the world because they make like 97% of their income from ads, so unless we’re willing to pay to use FB etc to stop it from happening. Obv like I said will they still harvest and I think they will.

54 points by nerdbert 3y ago

nerdbert 3y ago

I know, I know, 'free rein' not 'free reign'.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

1vuio0pswjnm7 3y ago

The choice is not between privacy and a susbscription. The subscription does not include the right to be free from surveillance and data collection by Facebook. Further, there are more than two choices. A third choice is not to decide. Yes, they will back down. It makes no sense to _block_ users simply because they will not consent to targeted ads. Users who consent will get targeted ads. Users that do not consent will get non-targeted ads. Users who subscribe get fleeced. Instead of the app try using FB without Javascript: https://mbasic.facebook.com https://mbasic.facebook.com FB must have "growth" to keep Wall Street happy. _Blocking users_ is inconsistent with that objective. FB will back down but give it some time while they are forced to run this experiment.

ActorNightly 3y ago
>It makes no sense to block users simply because they will not consent to targeted ads. It absolutely 100% does. Advertisers in todays age only spend on targeted advertising because it not only works, but the converse of that (spamming users with random ads) degrades user experience.
- meiraleal 3y ago
  > but the converse of that (spamming users with random ads) degrades user experience The whole point of the discussion is that directed ads degraded user experience. What is your point then?
  - ActorNightly 3y ago
    >Directed ads degraded user experience. This is literally propaganda for people pushing for control of the internet through the idea of "privacy" There isn't a world where someone is using and app, and would prefer to see generic advertisements versus finding out about deals on products they care about or new products that they may be interested in. Unless of course you are bought into the bullshit bogeyman of "oh no, company is building a profile on me, that MUST mean they are going to use it for nefarious means", despite no evidence of this being true, ever. If you believe this, then you either virtue signaling off the ideology that companies and capitalism is evil, or you personally don't feel like you have enough self control to make decisions on your own despite what is being shown to you, and if so you really shouldn't have a say or vote in this.
    - nerdbert 3y ago
      Is it so hard to believe that other people may have different opinions from yours? I've never knowingly clicked on an ad in my life. I am very aware of how law enforcement, political consultants, and other organizations purchase targeting data from ad companies. I don't want to be part of it because I don't want to be part of it.
    - meiraleal 3y ago

a2128 3y ago

Which country are you from? A family member in Lithuania has gotten this popup as well, but surprisingly it was asking for a whole €12.99/month instead of €9.99/month. Initially I had assumed it would be €9.99/mo everywhere, or at least cheaper in countries where people don't earn as much.

nerdbert 3y ago
I think it asked for €12.99 on mobile, then I deleted the app, then it asked for €9.99 on desktop. Maybe they're experimenting with prices too. I'm from the Netherlands.
- soueuls 3y ago
  Probably because iOS is taking a 30% cut, so they just put the price higher on mobile.
  - ablation 3y ago
    Yes, Apple and Google’s extra charges: https://www.techradar.com/computing/software/instagram-and-facebook-get-ad-free-subscriptions-in-the-eu-but-theyre-pricey https://www.techradar.com/computing/software/instagram-and-f...

ActorNightly 3y ago

Honestly, at this point, I wish all established social media would just go to subscription models so the hands aren't tied by advertisers in terms of moderation. Itl greatly cut down on spam (the longer people stay on, the greater the cost of a ban is).

speedgoose 3y ago

This kind of choice have been implemented by webedia since a while. Though at a lower price, 2€/month. You can see it on https://jeuxvideo.com https://jeuxvideo.com for example. Some people were saying it’s not legal and it would go away quickly, but it’s still there and it might be legal.

Nextgrid 3y ago
> Some people were saying it’s not legal and it would go away quickly, but it’s still there and it might be legal. It took 5 years for Facebook's blatant GDPR infringement to be addressed, so give it another 5 years and we might finally see a binding decision on this.

Havoc 3y ago

Does this cover the other meta properties as well?

nerdbert 3y ago
I believe it's coming to Instagram soon. Haven't heard about plans for Whatsapp or Messenger. Threads isn't in Europe anyway.

_trackno5 3y ago

New EU regulation is forcing Meta to offer users an ad-free alternative. That’s why they are doing this. Meta’s revenue per user is around 40 USD iirc. Tbf, as much as people like whining they definitely get 12 bucks a month worth of entertainment off of Facebook and Instagram. People will easily spend 4-6h on social media daily. The reality is that this move will just prove that people like to talk but they are not willing to pay for their “freedom”.

meiraleal 3y ago
> People will easily spend 4-6h on social media daily. people will easily spend no time there too if their algorithms weren't tuned to be addicted. Which can easily be decided to be illegal in many countries based on the current laws already existing - but those companies will spend billions of dollars and use their brainwashing algorithms to prevent that. The brainwashing is so strong that it goes out of the social media border and overflow to every corner of the web, including HN. But fear no, _tracno5, we don't NEED Meta.
- _trackno5 3y ago
  Sure you don’t NEED meta. But it still offers value to their users. Regardless of their “addictive” design, you can’t deny that people want what they (and other social media) offer. It would be absurd to say they don’t add any value to people’s lives. We’re not talking about heroin here. You can always just delete all your accounts and live an unplugged life. And now you have an option to get all the upsides of social media minus the downsides of being tracked/advertised for less than the price of a pizza
- qeternity 3y ago
  > Which can easily be decided to be illegal in many countries based on the current laws already existing Sorry which laws are those? And for the billions of people with free will who use these services, you know what's better for them than they do?
  - meiraleal 3y ago

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

chippyty 3y ago

I quit facebook, and voila' my privacy concerns are gone at once. I also quit whatsapp. I self host my email since years, so i don't have to use other people computers and let them read my emails. I also self host an xmpp server for chatting with my friends. You know it seems to me that people spend a lot of time trying to solve a non existing problem, in this endless entropy. Just let go, already.

themoonisachees 3y ago
Any tips on self-hosting email?
- bendews 3y ago
  unless the account isn't important - don't. By the time you have a setup that isn't at the mercy of ISP outages, blackouts, misconfigurations etc. you have invested a load of time and money for not much gain.
  - janandonly 3y ago
    Which makes me wonder: how hard would It be to offer an email service as a self-hosted app? So you install this on a home always-on RaspberryPI or something and, after filling out some details, it just works. Would that be possible at all? Some scripts that in the background get the right certificates and set the right records and so on should be possible, no?
    - themoonisachees 3y ago
      From what I gather, yes, that would work, but no, it wouldn't. Apparently all non FAANG mailservers are one misstep away from being put on all blocklists in perpetuity with minimal chances of appeal.
    - nerdbert 3y ago
      There's so much babysitting required. I've managed to wean all but one of my clients off self-hosted email. They are paranoid and insist on keeping it in-house. It's such a big time suck to deal with spam filter tuning and blacklist removal requests and the like, but they keep paying the hourly rates for it.

gumballindie 3y ago

For people that pay, do they still use their data - behaviour, pictures, interactions - to train so called ais? If so this needs addressing, facebook should pay them instead.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

awiesenhofer 3y ago

I wonder if a subscription will also mean they stop showing you "suggested posts" in your feed. Since they are too basically ads based on your data (and similarly irritating as ads)

Nextgrid 3y ago
I would register and subscribe to this if I could just have Facebook with no suggested/algorithmic content nor any other tricks designed to encourage "engagement".

zwaps 3y ago

I like this a lot if they really disable tracking and so on. To be fair, it’s what a lot if us asked for.

thiago_fm 3y ago

"The discount is bigger if you don't buy it." -- delete those Apps, so you don't pay them with your data or your $10/month. Instead, call your parents, the people you care about, and get them to spend time with you. Send them postcards, and make them know you genuinely care. Meta even lets you download Messenger without Facebook. The same is true for Whatsapp. Just use them for communication if you must. There's no reason why anybody needs social media on their phone or in their life.

MarkusWandel 3y ago
Actually... Facebook did a full about-face (for me at least) recently. Having forced you to use a separate messenger app on mobile for a few years, they now disabled the messenger app and re-integrated messaging into the main app. Probably because people will see more ads this way.

6510 3y ago

With a paid product service shall be different.

antman 3y ago

I guess one can accept and at the end make a gdpr request to have their data removed

Nextgrid 3y ago
Facebook does not comply with the GDPR in total impunity, thanks to the corrupt/incompetent Irish DPA: https://web.archive.org/web/20230527122955/https://ruben.verborgh.org/facebook/ https://web.archive.org/web/20230527122955/https://ruben.ver...

ViewTrick1002 3y ago

Seems like a true consent based "Reject all" button is a critical danger to Facebook's business model since they are currently in violation of privacy rights in the EU after their last attempt at a legal basis was struck down. They are basing this subscribe or ad based model on a non-binding comment in a judgement last spring. Should hopefully only be a matter of time until it is ruled illegal. https://noyb.eu/en/meta-facebook-instagram-move-pay-your-rights-approach https://noyb.eu/en/meta-facebook-instagram-move-pay-your-rig...

georgeplusplus 3y ago

These tech companies are literally the product of their own demise. Most started with tons of VC money pouring in and operating at huge loses to attract large customer base. There customers got used to having things for free and now to change that mindset is going to ruin a lot of these companies product and force them to another platform. The problem this time for tech industry is there's not a lot of VC money floating around to create new overvalued service's.

ChrisArchitect 3y ago

Tell HN:

ChrisArchitect 3y ago

Lots of discussion over here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38068635 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38068635

j4yav 3y ago

Deleted my Facebook and Instagram accounts, I barely used them anyway and this was a good push to finally do it.

Mrirazak1 3y ago

My question is will they still collate all that data. There is no point in charging us to just have our data harvested like Twitter is doing rn. I think they should make that clear, if so then it’s not the worst idea in the world because they make like 97% of their income from ads, so unless we’re willing to pay to use FB etc to stop it from happening. Obv like I said will they still harvest and I think they will.