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You may dislike that but I can't see how anybody could disagree with those 3 slogans either. So they can't do any harm to anyone, can they?

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
omginternets 3y ago
Are we just going to pretend they’re not political slogans? The statement was perfect until that last line.
- jrsj 3y ago
  It really shouldn’t be controversial to suggest that calling people nazis on the official website for your programming language is unprofessional, but here we are…
  - omginternets 3y ago
    You’re pretending it isn’t a political slogan and that the meaning doesn’t extend beyond the literal sense of the words. I’m wondering why you’d do that.
    - jrsj 3y ago
      Quite the opposite if you see my other comments, I think you may have misread what I said here. This statement is clearly a problem imo, its usage of political slogans makes it more of a declaration of political allegiance rather than actually being about inclusivity.
      - omginternets 3y ago
        I did indeed misread, and we are in perfect agreement! My apologies!
  - galaxyLogic 3y ago
    > shouldn’t be controversial to suggest that calling people nazis on the official website is unprofessional Whom did they call "nazi"? Anybody? If they didn't call any particular person "nazi" then it's unprofessional to suggest they did that.
    - jrsj 3y ago
      No one explicitly But the idea that it would even be a concern for there to be “nazi bullshit” in a programming language would require such an absurdly broad definition of nazi that i can only assume whoever wrote this would consider a large % of Americans to be Nazis. This is inherently exclusionary. The statement is bullshit. It isn’t “Friendly <3” as the heading would suggest.
    - omginternets 3y ago
      The exact phrases in question are: 1. Black lives matter. 2. Trans rights are human rights. 3. No nazi bullsh*t. Phrases 1 & 2 are well-recognized political slogans, and I don't like some of the organizations that have very vocally rallied behind these slogans. Do you think that makes me a nazi? If not, how welcome do you think this makes me feel?
- tadfisher 3y ago
  The line that says "no Nazi bullshit"? That has to be the safest political position you can hold as long as you're not friends with Kanye West.
  - omginternets 3y ago
    It's a dog whistle. It is exactly the same as if I were to say to you, "all lives matter" or "make America great again". PS: we know you know this.
  - galaxyLogic 3y ago
    It should be safe. Still it seems some people get offended by it. What kind of people? I can only assume they are people more supportive of autocratic regimes than the rest of us.
    - omginternets 3y ago
      The exact phrases in question are: 1. Black lives matter. 2. Trans rights are human rights. 3. No nazi bullsh*t. Phrases 1 & 2 are well-recognized political slogans, and I don't like some of the organizations that have very vocally rallied behind these slogans. Do you think that makes me a nazi? And if not, how welcome do you think this makes me feel?
      - tadfisher 3y ago
        You seem to be applying some kind of modus ponens rule to this list. To me, they read disjointly; you can agree with the status quo regarding police violence, and that trans people should not be welcomed in society, and still not follow Nazi ideology.
        omginternets 3y ago
        Respectfully, you’re dodging part of the question. How would you feel if my org stated “all lives matter” and pretended not to see the problem?
magicalhippo 3y ago
They're not very specific and quite open to interpretation. As a left leaner here in Norway, I find at least the last two to be quite problematic and a huge red flag. They make me feel significantly less welcome.
- aslilac 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - magicalhippo 3y ago
    Trans rights are not well defined (ie what do the Gleam team put under that umbrella), and I've seen several statements in that context that I find problematic at best. And they say "No nazi bullsh*t", which to me is a very loose phrasing with avtivist vibes, meaning I get unsure what exactly they put under the Nazi banner. Is it just actual Nazis or anyone they don't like, or something inbetween?
    - aslilac 3y ago
      trans rights are incredibly well defined, actually. they’re human rights. trans people deserve the same rights as every other human. idk what “problematic statements” you’ve heard but it sounds like you need to listen to less ben shapiro. saying you’ve heard “several” without providing any examples sounds like you just don’t like trans people. I think it’s safe to assume that when a community claims to contain “no nazi bullshit”, they mean that it contains no nazis or their associated bullshit. if you’re worried that that includes you or people you sympathize with, ask yourself “_why_?”, because it makes a lot of sense to everyone in the quite active gleam community.
      - jrsj 3y ago
        I mean you say they’re well defined but your own explanation is a vague generalization. I don’t think any decent & rational person wants to deprive trans people of basic human rights, but that doesn’t mean they’re comfortable with every single demand of activists either, which is probably the actual intent of the message. As for the “no nazi bullshit” part, this doesn’t tell me anything except that the community has some childish and unstable people who have a habit of calling everyone they disagree with a nazi. It’s not hard to be “worried that that includes you” when there are plenty of people who would call someone a nazi for just about anything or for being even slightly to the right of them on any issue. It has very little to do with a literal interpretation of these words, which these types always hide behind because they are cowards, and everything to do with the implicit meaning given broader context.
bxgebbare 3y ago
[flagged]
- lpil 3y ago
  Hi there, I'm the maintainer of the Gleam website. > The trans rights are human rights slogan is typically used as a euphemism for removing all single-sex spaces and services To be clear, the Gleam community does not support the banning of single-sex spaces.
  - bxgebbare 3y ago
    Thanks for the clarification. By that, do you mean that you have no issue with the exclusion of 'trans women' (i.e. men who identify as women) from female-only spaces?

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

omginternets 3y ago

Are we just going to pretend they’re not political slogans? The statement was perfect until that last line.

jrsj 3y ago
It really shouldn’t be controversial to suggest that calling people nazis on the official website for your programming language is unprofessional, but here we are…
- omginternets 3y ago
  You’re pretending it isn’t a political slogan and that the meaning doesn’t extend beyond the literal sense of the words. I’m wondering why you’d do that.
  - jrsj 3y ago
    Quite the opposite if you see my other comments, I think you may have misread what I said here. This statement is clearly a problem imo, its usage of political slogans makes it more of a declaration of political allegiance rather than actually being about inclusivity.
    - omginternets 3y ago
      I did indeed misread, and we are in perfect agreement! My apologies!
- galaxyLogic 3y ago
  > shouldn’t be controversial to suggest that calling people nazis on the official website is unprofessional Whom did they call "nazi"? Anybody? If they didn't call any particular person "nazi" then it's unprofessional to suggest they did that.
  - jrsj 3y ago
    No one explicitly But the idea that it would even be a concern for there to be “nazi bullshit” in a programming language would require such an absurdly broad definition of nazi that i can only assume whoever wrote this would consider a large % of Americans to be Nazis. This is inherently exclusionary. The statement is bullshit. It isn’t “Friendly <3” as the heading would suggest.
  - omginternets 3y ago
    The exact phrases in question are: 1. Black lives matter. 2. Trans rights are human rights. 3. No nazi bullsh*t. Phrases 1 & 2 are well-recognized political slogans, and I don't like some of the organizations that have very vocally rallied behind these slogans. Do you think that makes me a nazi? If not, how welcome do you think this makes me feel?
tadfisher 3y ago
The line that says "no Nazi bullshit"? That has to be the safest political position you can hold as long as you're not friends with Kanye West.
- omginternets 3y ago
  It's a dog whistle. It is exactly the same as if I were to say to you, "all lives matter" or "make America great again". PS: we know you know this.
- galaxyLogic 3y ago
  It should be safe. Still it seems some people get offended by it. What kind of people? I can only assume they are people more supportive of autocratic regimes than the rest of us.
  - omginternets 3y ago
    The exact phrases in question are: 1. Black lives matter. 2. Trans rights are human rights. 3. No nazi bullsh*t. Phrases 1 & 2 are well-recognized political slogans, and I don't like some of the organizations that have very vocally rallied behind these slogans. Do you think that makes me a nazi? And if not, how welcome do you think this makes me feel?
    - tadfisher 3y ago
      You seem to be applying some kind of modus ponens rule to this list. To me, they read disjointly; you can agree with the status quo regarding police violence, and that trans people should not be welcomed in society, and still not follow Nazi ideology.
      - omginternets 3y ago
        Respectfully, you’re dodging part of the question. How would you feel if my org stated “all lives matter” and pretended not to see the problem?

magicalhippo 3y ago

They're not very specific and quite open to interpretation. As a left leaner here in Norway, I find at least the last two to be quite problematic and a huge red flag. They make me feel significantly less welcome.

aslilac 3y ago
[flagged]
- magicalhippo 3y ago
  Trans rights are not well defined (ie what do the Gleam team put under that umbrella), and I've seen several statements in that context that I find problematic at best. And they say "No nazi bullsh*t", which to me is a very loose phrasing with avtivist vibes, meaning I get unsure what exactly they put under the Nazi banner. Is it just actual Nazis or anyone they don't like, or something inbetween?
  - aslilac 3y ago
    trans rights are incredibly well defined, actually. they’re human rights. trans people deserve the same rights as every other human. idk what “problematic statements” you’ve heard but it sounds like you need to listen to less ben shapiro. saying you’ve heard “several” without providing any examples sounds like you just don’t like trans people. I think it’s safe to assume that when a community claims to contain “no nazi bullshit”, they mean that it contains no nazis or their associated bullshit. if you’re worried that that includes you or people you sympathize with, ask yourself “_why_?”, because it makes a lot of sense to everyone in the quite active gleam community.
    - jrsj 3y ago
      I mean you say they’re well defined but your own explanation is a vague generalization. I don’t think any decent & rational person wants to deprive trans people of basic human rights, but that doesn’t mean they’re comfortable with every single demand of activists either, which is probably the actual intent of the message. As for the “no nazi bullshit” part, this doesn’t tell me anything except that the community has some childish and unstable people who have a habit of calling everyone they disagree with a nazi. It’s not hard to be “worried that that includes you” when there are plenty of people who would call someone a nazi for just about anything or for being even slightly to the right of them on any issue. It has very little to do with a literal interpretation of these words, which these types always hide behind because they are cowards, and everything to do with the implicit meaning given broader context.

bxgebbare 3y ago

[flagged]

lpil 3y ago
Hi there, I'm the maintainer of the Gleam website. > The trans rights are human rights slogan is typically used as a euphemism for removing all single-sex spaces and services To be clear, the Gleam community does not support the banning of single-sex spaces.
- bxgebbare 3y ago
  Thanks for the clarification. By that, do you mean that you have no issue with the exclusion of 'trans women' (i.e. men who identify as women) from female-only spaces?