6 ms·

Tumble Forth

144 points by jtoledo 3y ago

PLenz 3y ago
Hugged to death?
- andai 3y ago
  Works for me but here is the archived version https://web.archive.org/web/20231107232338/http://tumbleforth.hardcoded.net/ https://web.archive.org/web/20231107232338/http://tumblefort...
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- csande17 3y ago
  The site doesn't seem to support HTTPS, but HTTP works fine. (This might be intentional; all the links on the home page have http: URLs, not https:.)
  - codetrotter 3y ago
    The two linked operating systems, Collapse OS and Dusk OS have the following descriptions: Collapse OS > preserve the ability to program microcontrollers through civilizational collapse […] > Runs on Z80, 8086, 6809 and 6502 machines with very little resources Dusk OS > Dusk OS is a 32-bit Forth and big brother to Collapse OS. Its primary purpose is to be maximally useful during the first stage of civilizational collapse, that is, when we can't produce modern computers anymore but that there's still many modern computers around. In these scenarios it makes sense to give up on TLS. So probably that is why the author decided to serve their sites over plain HTTP only.
    - yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
      There's a difference between supporting unencrypted connections, and only handling unencrypted connections. Since civilization has not yet collapsed, I wish they would support both.
guestbest 3y ago
As brilliant as these bootstrap efforts are, I wonder if it would be a good decision to abandon all the business and application software in a civilization collapse. Someone on the GitHub project page for collapseos made a good comment to the effect of having gone through the software and hardware limitations of the late 70s and 80s, wouldn’t it be better to get follow the best practices of the era without the patent limitations? I think as I go along, I agree more and more with mental model. Esoteric hardware aside, it would be best to come up with a base model for the era of early personal computers then figure out a way to bootstrap a freedos on top of a unix type of operating system underneath and time share on top for users to log in using terminals. But that’s just my mode of thinking. Originally collapseos seemed to follow the BASIC model then it became about forth.
- vitiral 3y ago
  See the author's own efforts under "DuskOS"
- benj111 3y ago
  It's the geek version of prepping. It isn't about taking prudent steps to cover yourself again likely scenarios. It's an excuse to put a flamethrower on you pickup / write you own software stack from scratch.
- akira2501 3y ago
  > wouldn’t it be better to get follow the best practices of the era without the patent limitations? You could gain a large amount in energy efficiency and portability over implementations from that era as well. A small pocket computer that runs well crafted software and a battery that lasts for weeks.
- syntheweave 3y ago
  You could definitely argue that it would be better to build off of something like Contiki, a modern small-device OS that gained a lot of fame for its ports to old microcomputers, but is currently active in industry as well, with a new "Contiki-NG" version. The appeal of Forth is mostly in a principled sense of, if you want Forth to be your interface, you have to build your own Forth, because Forth does as little as possible to structure you. And building your own Forth is not impractical; that's the whole point. It's wonderful as an exercise and can be productive in the right context. But any highly developed or standardized Forth system gradually converges on being "just another platform." And once it's just another platform, it's an annoying dependency, and you end up demanding more structure for it to help tame the complexity, so the Forthiness habitually erodes.
LispSporks22 3y ago
I love diving into other peoples forths and checking out what trade offs they made. After figuring out the model (theaded, token etc.) I usually jump to the flags, dictionary layout and then the assembler (in forth) if it has one. My favorite is still f83 - it’s a masterpiece.
- packetlost 3y ago
  Which F83?
  - LispSporks22 3y ago
    F83 Forth by Laxen & Perry https://github.com/ForthHub/F83 https://github.com/ForthHub/F83
    - mietek 3y ago
      Why is F83 your favorite?
- s-macke 3y ago
  Then you might be interested in my Go implementation of Forth [1]. No assembler required, but bootstrapped and with some rudimentary internal type checking. The heap is just an `[]any` type array. It runs in the browser via WebAssembly. [1] https://github.com/s-macke/Forthly https://github.com/s-macke/Forthly
sph 3y ago
Excellent list of articles. I suggest people to look more into the author's CollapseOS, their research into a post-collapse minimal operating system to bootstrap computing anew. OSDev is such a fascinating and lost topic, due to how niche it is and how computers and hardware have become a complicated mass of abstractions only a few have full access to. Writing a OS that talks with 90% of your hardware is relatively doable, writing a GPU driver is pretty much impossible these days unless you are the manufacturer. We need more research into alternative computing. We need to move past UNIX which has served us well but it is a local maxima, not the best we can do. We need to return to the roots somewhat (maximecb's uvm, Devine Lu Linvega's uxn, etc.) to find a way forward. I started with OsDev at 16 [1], had to find a regular boring job for the rest of my career, but my goal right now is to bootstrap my own small "lifestyle" business to find money, time and freedom to explore the world of bare metal alternative OS again. Something Lispy and Smalltalky to power the entire thing. I wrote a bit about it in my website. [2][3] -- Sorry for the tangent. I love OSDev. Many of you would too, I bet. 1: https://github.com/1player/klesh https://github.com/1player/klesh 2: https://combo.cc/posts/in-search-of-the-holy-grail/ https://combo.cc/posts/in-search-of-the-holy-grail/ 3: https://combo.cc/posts/what-i-would-like-to-see-in-a-modern-vm/ https://combo.cc/posts/what-i-would-like-to-see-in-a-modern-...

Tumble Forth

144 points by jtoledo 3y ago

PLenz 3y ago

Hugged to death?

andai 3y ago
Works for me but here is the archived version https://web.archive.org/web/20231107232338/http://tumbleforth.hardcoded.net/ https://web.archive.org/web/20231107232338/http://tumblefort...
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
csande17 3y ago
The site doesn't seem to support HTTPS, but HTTP works fine. (This might be intentional; all the links on the home page have http: URLs, not https:.)
- codetrotter 3y ago
  The two linked operating systems, Collapse OS and Dusk OS have the following descriptions: Collapse OS > preserve the ability to program microcontrollers through civilizational collapse […] > Runs on Z80, 8086, 6809 and 6502 machines with very little resources Dusk OS > Dusk OS is a 32-bit Forth and big brother to Collapse OS. Its primary purpose is to be maximally useful during the first stage of civilizational collapse, that is, when we can't produce modern computers anymore but that there's still many modern computers around. In these scenarios it makes sense to give up on TLS. So probably that is why the author decided to serve their sites over plain HTTP only.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
    There's a difference between supporting unencrypted connections, and only handling unencrypted connections. Since civilization has not yet collapsed, I wish they would support both.

guestbest 3y ago

As brilliant as these bootstrap efforts are, I wonder if it would be a good decision to abandon all the business and application software in a civilization collapse. Someone on the GitHub project page for collapseos made a good comment to the effect of having gone through the software and hardware limitations of the late 70s and 80s, wouldn’t it be better to get follow the best practices of the era without the patent limitations? I think as I go along, I agree more and more with mental model. Esoteric hardware aside, it would be best to come up with a base model for the era of early personal computers then figure out a way to bootstrap a freedos on top of a unix type of operating system underneath and time share on top for users to log in using terminals. But that’s just my mode of thinking. Originally collapseos seemed to follow the BASIC model then it became about forth.

vitiral 3y ago
See the author's own efforts under "DuskOS"
benj111 3y ago
It's the geek version of prepping. It isn't about taking prudent steps to cover yourself again likely scenarios. It's an excuse to put a flamethrower on you pickup / write you own software stack from scratch.
akira2501 3y ago
> wouldn’t it be better to get follow the best practices of the era without the patent limitations? You could gain a large amount in energy efficiency and portability over implementations from that era as well. A small pocket computer that runs well crafted software and a battery that lasts for weeks.
syntheweave 3y ago
You could definitely argue that it would be better to build off of something like Contiki, a modern small-device OS that gained a lot of fame for its ports to old microcomputers, but is currently active in industry as well, with a new "Contiki-NG" version. The appeal of Forth is mostly in a principled sense of, if you want Forth to be your interface, you have to build your own Forth, because Forth does as little as possible to structure you. And building your own Forth is not impractical; that's the whole point. It's wonderful as an exercise and can be productive in the right context. But any highly developed or standardized Forth system gradually converges on being "just another platform." And once it's just another platform, it's an annoying dependency, and you end up demanding more structure for it to help tame the complexity, so the Forthiness habitually erodes.

LispSporks22 3y ago

I love diving into other peoples forths and checking out what trade offs they made. After figuring out the model (theaded, token etc.) I usually jump to the flags, dictionary layout and then the assembler (in forth) if it has one. My favorite is still f83 - it’s a masterpiece.

packetlost 3y ago
Which F83?
- LispSporks22 3y ago
  F83 Forth by Laxen & Perry https://github.com/ForthHub/F83 https://github.com/ForthHub/F83
  - mietek 3y ago
    Why is F83 your favorite?
s-macke 3y ago
Then you might be interested in my Go implementation of Forth [1]. No assembler required, but bootstrapped and with some rudimentary internal type checking. The heap is just an `[]any` type array. It runs in the browser via WebAssembly. [1] https://github.com/s-macke/Forthly https://github.com/s-macke/Forthly

sph 3y ago

Excellent list of articles. I suggest people to look more into the author's CollapseOS, their research into a post-collapse minimal operating system to bootstrap computing anew. OSDev is such a fascinating and lost topic, due to how niche it is and how computers and hardware have become a complicated mass of abstractions only a few have full access to. Writing a OS that talks with 90% of your hardware is relatively doable, writing a GPU driver is pretty much impossible these days unless you are the manufacturer. We need more research into alternative computing. We need to move past UNIX which has served us well but it is a local maxima, not the best we can do. We need to return to the roots somewhat (maximecb's uvm, Devine Lu Linvega's uxn, etc.) to find a way forward. I started with OsDev at 16 [1], had to find a regular boring job for the rest of my career, but my goal right now is to bootstrap my own small "lifestyle" business to find money, time and freedom to explore the world of bare metal alternative OS again. Something Lispy and Smalltalky to power the entire thing. I wrote a bit about it in my website. [2][3] -- Sorry for the tangent. I love OSDev. Many of you would too, I bet. 1: https://github.com/1player/klesh https://github.com/1player/klesh 2: https://combo.cc/posts/in-search-of-the-holy-grail/ https://combo.cc/posts/in-search-of-the-holy-grail/ 3: https://combo.cc/posts/what-i-would-like-to-see-in-a-modern-vm/ https://combo.cc/posts/what-i-would-like-to-see-in-a-modern-...