6 ms·

I get a notification on my phone when any money is deposited or withdrawn from my account. If its not something I've just done or an unexpected amount, then it

I get a notification on my phone when any money is deposited or withdrawn from my account. If its not something I've just done or an unexpected amount, then its probably fraud and I can tell my bank.

cj 3y ago
In the US, restaurants immediately charge the price of the meal (without tip). Then the next day the restaurant updates the amount of the original charge to add on the amount you added as a tip. That means shady restaurant could change your tip the next day if they wanted to pull a fast one on you. In other words, it’s not possible to get an immediate notification of the total amount charged including tip until 1-2 days after the meal. (Don’t ask me why the system works this way, makes no sense to me)
- throwanem 3y ago
  It works that way because in the 1980s that was the only way to make it work at all, and it still works that way because being able to do the equivalent of an HTTP OPTIONS preflight for money is actually quite useful.
  - cj 3y ago
    A restaurant could ask for the tip before charging the card.
    - throwanem 3y ago
      Okay. Now: - every restaurant PoS has to be updated to handle this use case; - you have to wait for your server to make a second visit to your table before you can sign your tab and leave; - every server has to spend extra time dealing with every table's tab upfront, rather than settling after close when no customers are inconvenienced by the time that takes; - and all this cost and friction to reduce the incidence of a kind of low-value card-present fraud which is trivial for the customer to have reversed, and quite rare in all respects save the purely anecdotal. If you're going to worry about any kind of payment card chicanery at a restaurant, the thing worth looking out for is skimming, not this.
    - mytailorisrich 3y ago
      That's how it works in Europe. In fact, the card terminals themselved ask how much you want to tip when you pay and then the card payment is taken on the total. I don't think it would be possible to proceed another way with all the safety procedures in place nowadays. Otherwise, people used to leave cash on the table when they left even if they had paid by card (meal only) and they wanted to tip.
      - throwanem 3y ago
        In the US, it'd be considered déclassé in most sit-down restaurants for the customer to run their own card. You see it at fast food and "fast casual" places, but not really anywhere fancier; to a good first approximation you can quickly understand in which market segment a restaurant would like you to perceive it by how easy or difficult it is to see any point-of-sale equipment from anywhere in the dining area. I have the sense that tipping is much more customary in the US than in Europe, which may also make a difference. Certainly there is a significant semiosis around the concept here, which would also have to change in response to a change in the shape of the practice; I don't know exactly how much that contributes to things staying as they are, but I doubt it's of no import.
        mytailorisrich 3y ago
        > In the US, it'd be considered déclassé in most sit-down restaurants for the customer to run their own card. Oh, I see. The US are so 1980s ;) In Europe all card payments are chip-and-pin so they have to hand the card machine to you for you to type your pin.
        throwanem 3y ago
        Yeah, there's a lot of tech debt here owing to us having invented payment cards and all ;) EMV is pretty common here these days, but evidently optional for restaurants; I suspect there's a carveout in the relevant association rules.
        aembleton 3y ago
        > In the US, it'd be considered déclassé in most sit-down restaurants for the customer to run their own card. Interesting; I rarely carry a card and just pay with my phone. I've never been to the US, but it certainly wasn't an issue when I visited Canada. I should probably remember to take my card if I visit a restaurant in the US.

I get a notification on my phone when any money is deposited or withdrawn from my account. If its not something I've just done or an unexpected amount, then its probably fraud and I can tell my bank.

cj 3y ago

In the US, restaurants immediately charge the price of the meal (without tip). Then the next day the restaurant updates the amount of the original charge to add on the amount you added as a tip. That means shady restaurant could change your tip the next day if they wanted to pull a fast one on you. In other words, it’s not possible to get an immediate notification of the total amount charged including tip until 1-2 days after the meal. (Don’t ask me why the system works this way, makes no sense to me)

throwanem 3y ago
It works that way because in the 1980s that was the only way to make it work at all, and it still works that way because being able to do the equivalent of an HTTP OPTIONS preflight for money is actually quite useful.
- cj 3y ago
  A restaurant could ask for the tip before charging the card.
  - throwanem 3y ago
    Okay. Now: - every restaurant PoS has to be updated to handle this use case; - you have to wait for your server to make a second visit to your table before you can sign your tab and leave; - every server has to spend extra time dealing with every table's tab upfront, rather than settling after close when no customers are inconvenienced by the time that takes; - and all this cost and friction to reduce the incidence of a kind of low-value card-present fraud which is trivial for the customer to have reversed, and quite rare in all respects save the purely anecdotal. If you're going to worry about any kind of payment card chicanery at a restaurant, the thing worth looking out for is skimming, not this.
  - mytailorisrich 3y ago
    That's how it works in Europe. In fact, the card terminals themselved ask how much you want to tip when you pay and then the card payment is taken on the total. I don't think it would be possible to proceed another way with all the safety procedures in place nowadays. Otherwise, people used to leave cash on the table when they left even if they had paid by card (meal only) and they wanted to tip.
    - throwanem 3y ago
      In the US, it'd be considered déclassé in most sit-down restaurants for the customer to run their own card. You see it at fast food and "fast casual" places, but not really anywhere fancier; to a good first approximation you can quickly understand in which market segment a restaurant would like you to perceive it by how easy or difficult it is to see any point-of-sale equipment from anywhere in the dining area. I have the sense that tipping is much more customary in the US than in Europe, which may also make a difference. Certainly there is a significant semiosis around the concept here, which would also have to change in response to a change in the shape of the practice; I don't know exactly how much that contributes to things staying as they are, but I doubt it's of no import.
      - mytailorisrich 3y ago
        > In the US, it'd be considered déclassé in most sit-down restaurants for the customer to run their own card. Oh, I see. The US are so 1980s ;) In Europe all card payments are chip-and-pin so they have to hand the card machine to you for you to type your pin.
        throwanem 3y ago
        Yeah, there's a lot of tech debt here owing to us having invented payment cards and all ;) EMV is pretty common here these days, but evidently optional for restaurants; I suspect there's a carveout in the relevant association rules.
      - aembleton 3y ago
        > In the US, it'd be considered déclassé in most sit-down restaurants for the customer to run their own card. Interesting; I rarely carry a card and just pay with my phone. I've never been to the US, but it certainly wasn't an issue when I visited Canada. I should probably remember to take my card if I visit a restaurant in the US.