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"The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppress

by jjeaff 3y ago

"The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned." It is strangely worded, but I think it could be interpreted to also mean that the government shall not do anything that would call the validity of the debt into question. It doesn't really make sense to pass an amendment that tries to mandate the perception of the validity of the debt. if the government stops honoring it, then the invisible hand of the market will consider it invalid.

immibis 3y ago
That would be a reach. The non-reaching interpretation is the face value one: the validity of the public debt ... shall not be questioned. It's hardly the most anti-market law around - the US has farm subsidies, and some countries even have price controls.
- ndriscoll 3y ago
  What would that even mean though? Bonds are sold at auctions, and already sell at a price different from face value. The difference determines the yield. You could have "no one questioning the validity" but people are still going to either not participate in the auction, or bid only for high yields.
- jjeaff 3y ago
  One of the factors in evaluating a case is whether the proposed remedy is feasible or even possible. I'm not sure what forcing everyone else to "consider valid" a government bond that is not being honored. Do you arrest and imprison anyone who reveals that they are not getting paid on their bond at maturity? Do you force buyers to buy it at face value, even though they know it will not be honored?
eli 3y ago
I don't think that's a reach. There's a credible argument that it compels the President to continue to service debts
- fnordpiglet 3y ago
  I think it’s even stronger than that. It doesn’t just compel the president, which is a political office, but it compels every civil servant in the treasury as it’s a constitutional mandate. So in theory even if the president declares no debt payment, the treasury would still make the payments.
SilasX 3y ago
On my latest re-reading of it in your comment, it sounds more like it's saying, "shut up, you lost, the measures taken to suppress your rebellion are valid, move the frak on".

by jjeaff 3y ago

immibis 3y ago

That would be a reach. The non-reaching interpretation is the face value one: the validity of the public debt ... shall not be questioned. It's hardly the most anti-market law around - the US has farm subsidies, and some countries even have price controls.

ndriscoll 3y ago
What would that even mean though? Bonds are sold at auctions, and already sell at a price different from face value. The difference determines the yield. You could have "no one questioning the validity" but people are still going to either not participate in the auction, or bid only for high yields.
jjeaff 3y ago
One of the factors in evaluating a case is whether the proposed remedy is feasible or even possible. I'm not sure what forcing everyone else to "consider valid" a government bond that is not being honored. Do you arrest and imprison anyone who reveals that they are not getting paid on their bond at maturity? Do you force buyers to buy it at face value, even though they know it will not be honored?

eli 3y ago

I don't think that's a reach. There's a credible argument that it compels the President to continue to service debts

fnordpiglet 3y ago
I think it’s even stronger than that. It doesn’t just compel the president, which is a political office, but it compels every civil servant in the treasury as it’s a constitutional mandate. So in theory even if the president declares no debt payment, the treasury would still make the payments.

SilasX 3y ago

On my latest re-reading of it in your comment, it sounds more like it's saying, "shut up, you lost, the measures taken to suppress your rebellion are valid, move the frak on".