4 ms·

Wether or not laws and policies have, in practice, anything to do with what people want, is still up for debate [1] [2]. It could also be argued that such laws

by ElFitz 3y ago

Wether or not laws and policies have, in practice, anything to do with what people want, is still up for debate [1] [2]. It could also be argued that such laws and policies have mainly been enacted by states in order to eliminate threats to their authority, legitimacy, or continued existence, through financial control. Which may or may not be the case. Just pointing out that states, even liberal democracies, may not always be all about expressing the will of their constituents. [1]: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-politics/article/testing-theories-of-american-politics-elites-interest-groups-and-average-citizens/62327F513959D0A304D4893B382B992B https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-poli... [2]: https://www.vox.com/2016/5/9/11502464/gilens-page-oligarchy-study https://www.vox.com/2016/5/9/11502464/gilens-page-oligarchy-...

pdonis 3y ago
> Wether or not laws and policies have, in practice, anything to do with what people want, is still up for debate If we the people wanted something different, we would be voting differently. The fact that we continue to vote for the same incumbents means they are doing what we want.
- lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y ago
  Individual House Representatives usually have high approval ratings from people who voted them in while Congress as a whole has a terrible approval rating. It's not quite as simple as seeing historical election results and saying everybody is necessarily happy with their representation.
  - pdonis 3y ago
    > Individual House Representatives usually have high approval ratings from people who voted them in while Congress as a whole has a terrible approval rating. Yes, that's true. (And the Senate is no different.) What does it mean? I think it means that people do not realize the actual problem. They don't see the two facts you cite as at odds with each other or connected to each other at all. But they are. The reason why Congress can have such a low approval rating while incumbency reelection rates remain high are that people think it's all those other members of Congress who are the problem--if only everyone would listen to their members of Congress, all that stuff would get fixed. They don't realize that, if you send someone to Congress to fix something, and it doesn't get fixed, you need to send someone else. You can't keep allowing the incumbents to hide behind "it's not me, it's all those others" forever.
    - aldonius 3y ago
      >> Individual House Representatives usually have high approval ratings from people who voted them in while Congress as a whole has a terrible approval rating. > Yes, that's true. (And the Senate is no different.) What does it mean? Red voters tend to live in red seats & states, blue voters tend to live in blue seats and states.
      - pdonis 3y ago
        > Red voters tend to live in red seats & states, blue voters tend to live in blue seats and states. This is a tautology. It doesn't change anything I said.
        aldonius 3y ago
        Sure. I still think it's the most intuitive way to describe the first-order explanation for why people are happy with their specific representatives, but not Congress as a whole.
- ElFitz 3y ago
  Yes and no. See gerrymandering. See abstention rates and voter apathy. Politics, like any system, can be gamed. Considering the incentives and interests at play, it is no surprise that it is. Taking into account how long these systems or similar have been in place, it shouldn’t be surprising that efficient tactics and strategies have been devised and refined over time. Also considering how uneducated most of us are when it comes to politics, it is no surprise that most of us fall continuously fall for age old tactics and strategies. Regarding "we the people", I personally do not come from nor live in the US. In the country I come from, people chose to do exactly what you suggest and vote for someone new. They eschewed both traditional parties, did not fall into the extremes' traps, and elected… the underdog! Or so they thought. It seems they hate him now. He did get reelected, but by less than 40% of the people who could vote if they cared to or believed it would change anything. Nothing new under the sun, really. I’m pretty sure we’d find the same patterns at play in Athen’s Boule and Ancient Rome. But hey, "with every mistake we must surely be learning". In case it wasn’t clear, I have personally entirely given up on both my fellow citizens and my home country’s (a liberal democracy as well) politics.

by ElFitz 3y ago

pdonis 3y ago

> Wether or not laws and policies have, in practice, anything to do with what people want, is still up for debate If we the people wanted something different, we would be voting differently. The fact that we continue to vote for the same incumbents means they are doing what we want.

lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y ago
Individual House Representatives usually have high approval ratings from people who voted them in while Congress as a whole has a terrible approval rating. It's not quite as simple as seeing historical election results and saying everybody is necessarily happy with their representation.
- pdonis 3y ago
  > Individual House Representatives usually have high approval ratings from people who voted them in while Congress as a whole has a terrible approval rating. Yes, that's true. (And the Senate is no different.) What does it mean? I think it means that people do not realize the actual problem. They don't see the two facts you cite as at odds with each other or connected to each other at all. But they are. The reason why Congress can have such a low approval rating while incumbency reelection rates remain high are that people think it's all those other members of Congress who are the problem--if only everyone would listen to their members of Congress, all that stuff would get fixed. They don't realize that, if you send someone to Congress to fix something, and it doesn't get fixed, you need to send someone else. You can't keep allowing the incumbents to hide behind "it's not me, it's all those others" forever.
  - aldonius 3y ago
    >> Individual House Representatives usually have high approval ratings from people who voted them in while Congress as a whole has a terrible approval rating. > Yes, that's true. (And the Senate is no different.) What does it mean? Red voters tend to live in red seats & states, blue voters tend to live in blue seats and states.
    - pdonis 3y ago
      > Red voters tend to live in red seats & states, blue voters tend to live in blue seats and states. This is a tautology. It doesn't change anything I said.
      - aldonius 3y ago
        Sure. I still think it's the most intuitive way to describe the first-order explanation for why people are happy with their specific representatives, but not Congress as a whole.
ElFitz 3y ago
Yes and no. See gerrymandering. See abstention rates and voter apathy. Politics, like any system, can be gamed. Considering the incentives and interests at play, it is no surprise that it is. Taking into account how long these systems or similar have been in place, it shouldn’t be surprising that efficient tactics and strategies have been devised and refined over time. Also considering how uneducated most of us are when it comes to politics, it is no surprise that most of us fall continuously fall for age old tactics and strategies. Regarding "we the people", I personally do not come from nor live in the US. In the country I come from, people chose to do exactly what you suggest and vote for someone new. They eschewed both traditional parties, did not fall into the extremes' traps, and elected… the underdog! Or so they thought. It seems they hate him now. He did get reelected, but by less than 40% of the people who could vote if they cared to or believed it would change anything. Nothing new under the sun, really. I’m pretty sure we’d find the same patterns at play in Athen’s Boule and Ancient Rome. But hey, "with every mistake we must surely be learning". In case it wasn’t clear, I have personally entirely given up on both my fellow citizens and my home country’s (a liberal democracy as well) politics.