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Buddhism and monasticism are revered social institutions in some places, not just the spiritual hobby of some Western seekers, and societies all over the world

Buddhism and monasticism are revered social institutions in some places, not just the spiritual hobby of some Western seekers, and societies all over the world and throughout history seem inclined to protect the role and image of revered institutions. In the US, the comparison might be to its Constitution or Founding Fathers. Political free speech is enshrined in the Constitution, and often championed by its Founding Fathers, but plenty of people who are deeply committed to those institutions still get earnestly riled up if you take critical or disrespectful speech and aim it at the Constitution or Founding Fathers themselves. There's an intellectual dissonance to be found there, maybe, but it probably resolves in many people ultimately valuing a common, respected, strong social fabric over ideology and dogma.

lovich 3y ago
There’s actually a sociological theory that the reverence for the Founding Fathers, Constitution, and related subjects are becoming a religion. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_civil_religion https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_civil_religion
- kube-system 3y ago
  For when you love separation of church and state so much, you build a church to preach about it.
FrustratedMonky 3y ago
Isn't all religion a hobby? Just because a lot of Westerners wouldn't die for their religion, doesn't make religion a hobby. That is where you draw the line isn't it? 'True Believers' do believe in a real hell, and are willing to die for it, whether in a Jihad or a lions den. Anything less is just 'signaling' and a hobby? I was referring more to Buddhist ethics, which do not include getting bent out of shape and calling the cops because they get their feelings hurt over images. Once you go down the path of being 'revered' and a 'social institute' to be defended, then I'd say you are slipping into being just like any of the other religions with calcified hierarchical structures, a 'dogmatic orthodoxy'. And loosing the essence of Buddhism.
- swatcoder 3y ago
  I’m not sure you read my comment the way I intended it or the way others seem to have. While I must have communicated something poorly, there’s no denigration of individual spiritual seeking intended. I’m one of those people myself. But there’s a whole different experience of “religion” that exists for people whose religion is integrated across generations of family history, centuries old cultural institutions, widespread adoption, etc What might seem calcified and orthodox to you is the lived experience of millions of people, and their ancestors, and their community. Their relationship with that community and heritage is real and meaningful, and while your understanding of Buddhism may not be able to make sense of looking after these monks and the respect they’re seen as due, theirs does. That doesn’t mean that your understanding is lesser, in what it provides for you, or maybe even its attention to the “essence” of Buddhism, but theirs is of a different kind and no less studied.
  - FrustratedMonky 3y ago
    Thank You, yes, of course. You are explaining better than my response did. I wasn't actually trying to take offense. It is true that some 'true believers' really do draw the line at death and killing for religion. And there is a very large sliding scale between someone that just goes to church on Sunday then forgets about it, and someone how lives it so deeply they will become suicide bombers. Lot of gray area in between these worlds. Just I've always held out that Buddhist are different, without a 'god' to become radicalized around. The teachings of Buddha are bit more 'scientific'. It's more about reason, or if reason is still too strong, about how to understand the world. Isn't the heart sutra really about phenomenology. So, it is discouraging when a sect of Buddhist fall prey to the same foibles/downfall as say Catholicism, and become more about the 'image', than the 'understanding'. But, maybe all of this is just human nature. Built into our brains, ala William James. People have a religious experience, form a church, but eventually all religions of all stripes tend to become about a group hierarchy, and control, bureaucratic.
cultofmetatron 3y ago
> Buddhism and monasticism are revered social institutions in some places, Its a stupid and incredibly hypocritical take for this societies. (and I say this as someone who's parents come from such a culture) to become buddha, you must kill the buddha. this may sound offensive to the ignorant but revering buddha to this level is counterproductive to achieving the state of enlightenment.

lovich 3y ago

There’s actually a sociological theory that the reverence for the Founding Fathers, Constitution, and related subjects are becoming a religion. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_civil_religion https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_civil_religion

kube-system 3y ago
For when you love separation of church and state so much, you build a church to preach about it.

FrustratedMonky 3y ago

Isn't all religion a hobby? Just because a lot of Westerners wouldn't die for their religion, doesn't make religion a hobby. That is where you draw the line isn't it? 'True Believers' do believe in a real hell, and are willing to die for it, whether in a Jihad or a lions den. Anything less is just 'signaling' and a hobby? I was referring more to Buddhist ethics, which do not include getting bent out of shape and calling the cops because they get their feelings hurt over images. Once you go down the path of being 'revered' and a 'social institute' to be defended, then I'd say you are slipping into being just like any of the other religions with calcified hierarchical structures, a 'dogmatic orthodoxy'. And loosing the essence of Buddhism.

swatcoder 3y ago
I’m not sure you read my comment the way I intended it or the way others seem to have. While I must have communicated something poorly, there’s no denigration of individual spiritual seeking intended. I’m one of those people myself. But there’s a whole different experience of “religion” that exists for people whose religion is integrated across generations of family history, centuries old cultural institutions, widespread adoption, etc What might seem calcified and orthodox to you is the lived experience of millions of people, and their ancestors, and their community. Their relationship with that community and heritage is real and meaningful, and while your understanding of Buddhism may not be able to make sense of looking after these monks and the respect they’re seen as due, theirs does. That doesn’t mean that your understanding is lesser, in what it provides for you, or maybe even its attention to the “essence” of Buddhism, but theirs is of a different kind and no less studied.
- FrustratedMonky 3y ago
  Thank You, yes, of course. You are explaining better than my response did. I wasn't actually trying to take offense. It is true that some 'true believers' really do draw the line at death and killing for religion. And there is a very large sliding scale between someone that just goes to church on Sunday then forgets about it, and someone how lives it so deeply they will become suicide bombers. Lot of gray area in between these worlds. Just I've always held out that Buddhist are different, without a 'god' to become radicalized around. The teachings of Buddha are bit more 'scientific'. It's more about reason, or if reason is still too strong, about how to understand the world. Isn't the heart sutra really about phenomenology. So, it is discouraging when a sect of Buddhist fall prey to the same foibles/downfall as say Catholicism, and become more about the 'image', than the 'understanding'. But, maybe all of this is just human nature. Built into our brains, ala William James. People have a religious experience, form a church, but eventually all religions of all stripes tend to become about a group hierarchy, and control, bureaucratic.

cultofmetatron 3y ago

> Buddhism and monasticism are revered social institutions in some places, Its a stupid and incredibly hypocritical take for this societies. (and I say this as someone who's parents come from such a culture) to become buddha, you must kill the buddha. this may sound offensive to the ignorant but revering buddha to this level is counterproductive to achieving the state of enlightenment.