7 ms·

I wish there were some way they could filter out the whole super patriot warrior persona from law enforcement, it's useless to the community and it doesn't feel

I wish there were some way they could filter out the whole super patriot warrior persona from law enforcement, it's useless to the community and it doesn't feel safe it feels hostile, they have no business being in a position of power over anyone. I shouldn't see cops with punisher skull and crossed AR15s sleeve tattoos, that's not a law enforcement vibe, that's murderous vigilante cult vibe.

simbolit 3y ago
It's a vicious cycle. As long as the punisher types are cops, the "right" people are disincentivized to join, whereas other punisher types feel welcome. :-(
sublinear 3y ago
Wouldn't that just filter for the ones who really are murderous vigilantes or agitate those jokers into being serious about it?
Spivak 3y ago
Take away the guns and the ability to use any real force (ie on duty cops are held to the same standard of assault as everyone else) The police department as a whole needs that ability but reserve it for a small exclusive units that can only get called in to deal with matters that require rapid deesclation by force. When 99/100 of best cops are glorified meter maids, social workers, and civil servants you'll see the machismo disappear overnight.
- oh_sigh 3y ago
  Taking away cop guns in America would just equate to a lot of dead cops.
  - MeImCounting 3y ago
    I wasnt aware having a gun could stop bullets from killing you? Unless you think its appropriate for cops to be acting as judge jury and executioner.
    - oh_sigh 3y ago
      You didn't realize that? You really need to think harder on this. Are you aware that having a gun can stop a grizzly bear's teeth and claws from killing you too? > Unless you think its appropriate for cops to be acting as judge jury and executioner So if someone starts shooting at at random people in a mall, and a cop has a gun on him, he is supposed to run up and use some judo to disable the mass shooter, since the cop shouldn't act as judge jury and executioner?
      - MeImCounting 3y ago
        So your argument is that cops should have weapons because some extraordinary circumstances sometimes happen and we should hope that instead of acting like the cops at Parkland did they take it upon themselves to circumvent the justice system and instead dispense "frontier justice"? I am going ignore the part about grizzly bears because I dont believe that is in good faith and is basically just a non-sequitur I fail to see how thats any better than disarming the bullies and letting specialized teams IE SWAT teams take care of extraordinary situations. That is if they even manage to show up in time to do anything which is in doubt.
        googlryas 3y ago
        I think you haven't been paying attention if you think people shooting guns at the public, or at cops, is an "extraordinary circumstance" in America. It's not just mall shootings, or parkland. It's also people just shooting at cops after getting pulled over for speeding, which is far less likely to get national news attention. You're free to ignore it, but I added the point about grizzly bears because you seemed confused how a gun can help defend you against someone with a gun. It can help defend you against many threats, in fact. Edit:responded from the account on my phone, sorry for any confusion.
        MeImCounting 3y ago
        The premise of a gun being able to defend you from anything is dependent on you using that gun to kill said thing. I feel like maybe I didnt get across what I was trying to say clearly enough. Cops being protected by guns = cops killing anything they "perceive as a threat" I dont believe police officers should have the right or responsibility to dispense "frontier justice" meaning to execute people because they do something that is illegal. I am sure there is some legal definition of when an officer is allowed to shoot and kill another human being but I, and I hope most other people see that as circumventing the rule of law, making themselves into the judge jury and executioner. The entire premise of our legal system is thrown out the door when we accept police officers having the capability to use their own judgement to dispense death. See "Robocop" this isnt some new idea. Cops having guns on them is equivalent in many ways to martial law. I hope I dont need to explain why martial law is not a good thing for a free society.
  - Spivak 3y ago
    No it wouldn't for the exact same reason that regular people don't need guns on them at all times. What makes the police threatening isn't individual cops projecting the threat of violence and dispensing it randomly like Batman. It's that the police as an institution have the people, time, and resources to follow you to the ends of the earth (i.e. "the long arm of the law") and dispense collective justice. If your goal is not going to prison killing a cop is a really terrible way to go about that.
- nitwit005 3y ago
  I honestly suspect requiring the guns and military equipment to be pink and have mandatory hello kitty stickers would have a positive effect. My home town has an big armored vehicle. The last homicide was 2008. It's effectively a prop in their military role play.
NotACop182 3y ago
Good luck filtering them out. It’s almost built into the culture. You’re an outcast where I come from if you fall out of line. You learn to just go with the flow and avoid the bad elements to survive.
- SoftTalker 3y ago
  Maybe start by not hiring people with punisher skull and crossed AR15s sleeve tattoos.
  - fknorangesite 3y ago
    That's the problem: they don't have those when they're hired; that shit comes with the job, not before it.
    - hezralig 3y ago
      Are you referencing LASD Gangs? https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-05-17/dozens-of-lasd-deputies-ordered-to-show-suspected-gang-tattoos-reveal-others-who-have-them https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-05-17/dozens-o...
wyldberry 3y ago
The ability for hacker news commenters to grossly over-simplify and misrepresent things like this is unparalleled. Just like it takes all folks to make a village, it also takes those folks to do some missions that police forces have. The problem is when the culture of a police force is all of one type. There, however, is value in having people appear strong to those who would take advantage if weakness is detected. Today's punisher skull is yesteryear's ceremonial armor and masks.
- giraffe_lady 3y ago
  Nothing we need done requires a punisher skull bully with an inferiority complex intimidating citizens.
  - wyldberry 3y ago
    Nothing we need done requires .... intimidating citizens. Until you need SWAT to kick in a door with actual murderers on the other end. Really until you need violence to contain violence. Then you get into the real questions: in their day-to-day interactions such as issuing citations are they intimidating citizens with behavior or their appearance? I've known several Military folks who later became police (and had significantly better escalation of force training from the military) who looked fierce but were big softies most days. No better friend, but no worse enemy and all.
    - giraffe_lady 3y ago
      Yeah man I literally know two dozen cops and almost every single one is a racist coward who gets off on bullying people they have power over. That's what the punisher skulls are for. The murderers behind a door thing sound scary tho, how often do you think that happens? Vs like every other encounter the 700k american cops do each day? Also uh, uvalde? maine? Seems like we might be optimizing for the wrong thing here and also it doesn't even work.
      - seanw444 3y ago

simbolit 3y ago

It's a vicious cycle. As long as the punisher types are cops, the "right" people are disincentivized to join, whereas other punisher types feel welcome. :-(

sublinear 3y ago

Wouldn't that just filter for the ones who really are murderous vigilantes or agitate those jokers into being serious about it?

Spivak 3y ago

Take away the guns and the ability to use any real force (ie on duty cops are held to the same standard of assault as everyone else) The police department as a whole needs that ability but reserve it for a small exclusive units that can only get called in to deal with matters that require rapid deesclation by force. When 99/100 of best cops are glorified meter maids, social workers, and civil servants you'll see the machismo disappear overnight.

oh_sigh 3y ago
Taking away cop guns in America would just equate to a lot of dead cops.
- MeImCounting 3y ago
  I wasnt aware having a gun could stop bullets from killing you? Unless you think its appropriate for cops to be acting as judge jury and executioner.
  - oh_sigh 3y ago
    You didn't realize that? You really need to think harder on this. Are you aware that having a gun can stop a grizzly bear's teeth and claws from killing you too? > Unless you think its appropriate for cops to be acting as judge jury and executioner So if someone starts shooting at at random people in a mall, and a cop has a gun on him, he is supposed to run up and use some judo to disable the mass shooter, since the cop shouldn't act as judge jury and executioner?
    - MeImCounting 3y ago
      So your argument is that cops should have weapons because some extraordinary circumstances sometimes happen and we should hope that instead of acting like the cops at Parkland did they take it upon themselves to circumvent the justice system and instead dispense "frontier justice"? I am going ignore the part about grizzly bears because I dont believe that is in good faith and is basically just a non-sequitur I fail to see how thats any better than disarming the bullies and letting specialized teams IE SWAT teams take care of extraordinary situations. That is if they even manage to show up in time to do anything which is in doubt.
      - googlryas 3y ago
        I think you haven't been paying attention if you think people shooting guns at the public, or at cops, is an "extraordinary circumstance" in America. It's not just mall shootings, or parkland. It's also people just shooting at cops after getting pulled over for speeding, which is far less likely to get national news attention. You're free to ignore it, but I added the point about grizzly bears because you seemed confused how a gun can help defend you against someone with a gun. It can help defend you against many threats, in fact. Edit:responded from the account on my phone, sorry for any confusion.
        MeImCounting 3y ago
        The premise of a gun being able to defend you from anything is dependent on you using that gun to kill said thing. I feel like maybe I didnt get across what I was trying to say clearly enough. Cops being protected by guns = cops killing anything they "perceive as a threat" I dont believe police officers should have the right or responsibility to dispense "frontier justice" meaning to execute people because they do something that is illegal. I am sure there is some legal definition of when an officer is allowed to shoot and kill another human being but I, and I hope most other people see that as circumventing the rule of law, making themselves into the judge jury and executioner. The entire premise of our legal system is thrown out the door when we accept police officers having the capability to use their own judgement to dispense death. See "Robocop" this isnt some new idea. Cops having guns on them is equivalent in many ways to martial law. I hope I dont need to explain why martial law is not a good thing for a free society.
- Spivak 3y ago
  No it wouldn't for the exact same reason that regular people don't need guns on them at all times. What makes the police threatening isn't individual cops projecting the threat of violence and dispensing it randomly like Batman. It's that the police as an institution have the people, time, and resources to follow you to the ends of the earth (i.e. "the long arm of the law") and dispense collective justice. If your goal is not going to prison killing a cop is a really terrible way to go about that.
nitwit005 3y ago
I honestly suspect requiring the guns and military equipment to be pink and have mandatory hello kitty stickers would have a positive effect. My home town has an big armored vehicle. The last homicide was 2008. It's effectively a prop in their military role play.

NotACop182 3y ago

Good luck filtering them out. It’s almost built into the culture. You’re an outcast where I come from if you fall out of line. You learn to just go with the flow and avoid the bad elements to survive.

SoftTalker 3y ago
Maybe start by not hiring people with punisher skull and crossed AR15s sleeve tattoos.
- fknorangesite 3y ago
  That's the problem: they don't have those when they're hired; that shit comes with the job, not before it.
  - hezralig 3y ago
    Are you referencing LASD Gangs? https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-05-17/dozens-of-lasd-deputies-ordered-to-show-suspected-gang-tattoos-reveal-others-who-have-them https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-05-17/dozens-o...

wyldberry 3y ago

The ability for hacker news commenters to grossly over-simplify and misrepresent things like this is unparalleled. Just like it takes all folks to make a village, it also takes those folks to do some missions that police forces have. The problem is when the culture of a police force is all of one type. There, however, is value in having people appear strong to those who would take advantage if weakness is detected. Today's punisher skull is yesteryear's ceremonial armor and masks.

giraffe_lady 3y ago
Nothing we need done requires a punisher skull bully with an inferiority complex intimidating citizens.
- wyldberry 3y ago
  Nothing we need done requires .... intimidating citizens. Until you need SWAT to kick in a door with actual murderers on the other end. Really until you need violence to contain violence. Then you get into the real questions: in their day-to-day interactions such as issuing citations are they intimidating citizens with behavior or their appearance? I've known several Military folks who later became police (and had significantly better escalation of force training from the military) who looked fierce but were big softies most days. No better friend, but no worse enemy and all.
  - giraffe_lady 3y ago
    Yeah man I literally know two dozen cops and almost every single one is a racist coward who gets off on bullying people they have power over. That's what the punisher skulls are for. The murderers behind a door thing sound scary tho, how often do you think that happens? Vs like every other encounter the 700k american cops do each day? Also uh, uvalde? maine? Seems like we might be optimizing for the wrong thing here and also it doesn't even work.
    - seanw444 3y ago