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Uh, what do you think we can "actually determine" from before recorded history? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9th_millennium_BC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9

Uh, what do you think we can "actually determine" from before recorded history? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9th_millennium_BC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9th_millennium_BC I used to live on the next island over (French Island), and your clueless questioning of Penobscot sovereignty is disappointing. Would you also suggest that maybe Natufians should control the Levant?

ImJamal 3y ago
>Uh, what do you think we can "actually determine" from before recorded history? That is my point. You made a claim but have no evidence to prove it. >I used to live on the next island over (French Island), and your clueless questioning of Penobscot sovereignty is disappointing. I don't think you understand what my point even is if you think I am doubting anybody's sovereignty. >Would you also suggest that maybe Natufians should control the Levant? I don't think being the earliest inhabitants of an area gives permanent ownership. My issue is we are told we need to give back land to the previous owners. It just seems ridiculous that we should do that when many of the tribes we took the land from did the exact same thing we did.
- maxwell 3y ago
  > That is my point. You made a claim but have no evidence to prove it. I'm not claiming anything, it's right there on https://penobscotnation.org https://penobscotnation.org. Reach out to Chief Francis or the council if you have questions on their assertions. > I don't think you understand what my point even is if you think I am doubting anybody's sovereignty. Good to hear, that doesn't really seem to be the case among Mainers. Note that the Penobscot River has legally been a citizen of the Penobscot Nation since 2018. The State of Maine has repeatedly disputed their claims and legally challenged their sovereignty, finally losing their battle to control pollution in the river last year: https://www.nrdc.org/stories/22-year-court-battle-ends-justice-penobscot-river https://www.nrdc.org/stories/22-year-court-battle-ends-justi... > I don't think being the earliest inhabitants of an area gives permanent ownership. Okay, so who should control the Levant then? I understand how one could extrapolate from other geopolitical tensions, but there doesn't seem to be much uncertainty in this case regarding Penobscot claims. Yes they lost most of their wider territory through illegal treaties, but they never lost their "capital" on Indian Island. I'm not aware of any other New World peoples who weren't displaced from their ancestral headquarters by European settlers and have maintained continuity of government since before Columbus set sail. The Penobscots asserted their claim on over half of the land in Maine in the 1970s, and reached a settlement for over $80M in 1980, which they've used to acquire more territory [1]. The only question has been over sovereignty, specifically in terms of environmental rights, with the State of Maine taking on both the tribe and the feds in their failed battle for control over the river. 1. https://generationallandscapesblog.wordpress.com/sugar-island https://generationallandscapesblog.wordpress.com/sugar-islan...
  - ImJamal 3y ago
    >I'm not claiming anything, it's right there on https://penobscotnation.org https://penobscotnation.org. Reach out to Chief Francis or the council if you have questions on their assertions I interpreted your statement as you making the claim. I didn't realize you were just repeating the tribe's claim. I have no reason to believe they never fought another tribe and took their land. Perhaps they were the original inhabitants of the island, but perhaps not. Frankly, I don't trust people who refuse to acknowledge taking land from others when their history allegedly goes back thousands of years. >Okay, so who should control the Levant then? My preferred solution is to build a time machine and convince the British to retain control over the area. Since that isn't happening the only short term solution I see is for some third party to take control over the area (British Mandate style). Once this third party takes over they can stop the attacks between the two sides and then work on a long term solution. Israel is too militarily strong to be able to easily be taken over so I don't really think it is practical though. >I understand how one could extrapolate from other geopolitical tensions, but there doesn't seem to be much uncertainty in this case regarding Penobscot claims. I'm not doubting their claims that they controlled the area when the Europeans came. I'm doubting they didn't kill, steal and cheat others to get the land. The thing that annoys me about all these Native American claims is how people who are otherwise skeptical about historical claims just accept the Natives' claims without question. It is not just with this tribe, but with all of the tribes. I think it is just a continuation of some sort of Noble Savage Myth or something like that. >Yes they lost most of their wider territory through illegal treaties, but they never lost their "capital" on Indian Island. I'm not aware of any other New World peoples who weren't displaced from their ancestral headquarters by European settlers and have maintained continuity of government since before Columbus set sail. My argument isn't that the Europeans took the land from them, but they likely took the land from other tribes. We know native tribes frequently killed each other and displaced tribes. If killing, cheating, stealing and displacing people is not a legitimate way to gain land then pretty much every country is illegitimate. Eventually we just have to move on. Is there a single group of people that hasn't done bad things to obtain the land and government they have? Europe has mostly moved on and there is rarely (I know Russia/Ukraine is happening) fights about regaining land lost in generations past. It sucks for people to lose land, but I don't see any solution going forward. If we go back to the Levant example, what is the solution? Keep the existing borders and call it a day? Pro Palestinian people aren't chanting from the river to the sea for no reason. What if we give all the land to the Palestinians? Well the Israelis will feel like they just lost their land and the conflict will continue. Give all the land to Israel? Palestinians will feel like they just lost their land and will fight to get it back. The only long term solution is get people to accept the principle of forgive and forget. Until people can accept they may not have the land their ancestors had there will continue to be conflicts over land. Maybe some slight adjustments to the existing borders need to be made for cultural, religious, and language reasons for this to work, but until we can move on from past offenses we will continue to kill and displace one another. In regards to the natives, I don't know what the best way to make everybody feel whole. I don't think stripping land from nonnatives whose families have lived their for generations is the right way to solve this. That is the same thing the Europeans did to the natives. It will continue the animosity over the land. Forgive and forget seems like the only real solution. We may need to make some slight adjustments to borders though. I think giving the natives a few years to file any lawsuits and then calling it good is the solution. If you didn't get your lawsuit in or discovered additional land you think belongs to you, then you just have to forgive and forget.

ImJamal 3y ago

>Uh, what do you think we can "actually determine" from before recorded history? That is my point. You made a claim but have no evidence to prove it. >I used to live on the next island over (French Island), and your clueless questioning of Penobscot sovereignty is disappointing. I don't think you understand what my point even is if you think I am doubting anybody's sovereignty. >Would you also suggest that maybe Natufians should control the Levant? I don't think being the earliest inhabitants of an area gives permanent ownership. My issue is we are told we need to give back land to the previous owners. It just seems ridiculous that we should do that when many of the tribes we took the land from did the exact same thing we did.

maxwell 3y ago
> That is my point. You made a claim but have no evidence to prove it. I'm not claiming anything, it's right there on https://penobscotnation.org https://penobscotnation.org. Reach out to Chief Francis or the council if you have questions on their assertions. > I don't think you understand what my point even is if you think I am doubting anybody's sovereignty. Good to hear, that doesn't really seem to be the case among Mainers. Note that the Penobscot River has legally been a citizen of the Penobscot Nation since 2018. The State of Maine has repeatedly disputed their claims and legally challenged their sovereignty, finally losing their battle to control pollution in the river last year: https://www.nrdc.org/stories/22-year-court-battle-ends-justice-penobscot-river https://www.nrdc.org/stories/22-year-court-battle-ends-justi... > I don't think being the earliest inhabitants of an area gives permanent ownership. Okay, so who should control the Levant then? I understand how one could extrapolate from other geopolitical tensions, but there doesn't seem to be much uncertainty in this case regarding Penobscot claims. Yes they lost most of their wider territory through illegal treaties, but they never lost their "capital" on Indian Island. I'm not aware of any other New World peoples who weren't displaced from their ancestral headquarters by European settlers and have maintained continuity of government since before Columbus set sail. The Penobscots asserted their claim on over half of the land in Maine in the 1970s, and reached a settlement for over $80M in 1980, which they've used to acquire more territory [1]. The only question has been over sovereignty, specifically in terms of environmental rights, with the State of Maine taking on both the tribe and the feds in their failed battle for control over the river. 1. https://generationallandscapesblog.wordpress.com/sugar-island https://generationallandscapesblog.wordpress.com/sugar-islan...
- ImJamal 3y ago
  >I'm not claiming anything, it's right there on https://penobscotnation.org https://penobscotnation.org. Reach out to Chief Francis or the council if you have questions on their assertions I interpreted your statement as you making the claim. I didn't realize you were just repeating the tribe's claim. I have no reason to believe they never fought another tribe and took their land. Perhaps they were the original inhabitants of the island, but perhaps not. Frankly, I don't trust people who refuse to acknowledge taking land from others when their history allegedly goes back thousands of years. >Okay, so who should control the Levant then? My preferred solution is to build a time machine and convince the British to retain control over the area. Since that isn't happening the only short term solution I see is for some third party to take control over the area (British Mandate style). Once this third party takes over they can stop the attacks between the two sides and then work on a long term solution. Israel is too militarily strong to be able to easily be taken over so I don't really think it is practical though. >I understand how one could extrapolate from other geopolitical tensions, but there doesn't seem to be much uncertainty in this case regarding Penobscot claims. I'm not doubting their claims that they controlled the area when the Europeans came. I'm doubting they didn't kill, steal and cheat others to get the land. The thing that annoys me about all these Native American claims is how people who are otherwise skeptical about historical claims just accept the Natives' claims without question. It is not just with this tribe, but with all of the tribes. I think it is just a continuation of some sort of Noble Savage Myth or something like that. >Yes they lost most of their wider territory through illegal treaties, but they never lost their "capital" on Indian Island. I'm not aware of any other New World peoples who weren't displaced from their ancestral headquarters by European settlers and have maintained continuity of government since before Columbus set sail. My argument isn't that the Europeans took the land from them, but they likely took the land from other tribes. We know native tribes frequently killed each other and displaced tribes. If killing, cheating, stealing and displacing people is not a legitimate way to gain land then pretty much every country is illegitimate. Eventually we just have to move on. Is there a single group of people that hasn't done bad things to obtain the land and government they have? Europe has mostly moved on and there is rarely (I know Russia/Ukraine is happening) fights about regaining land lost in generations past. It sucks for people to lose land, but I don't see any solution going forward. If we go back to the Levant example, what is the solution? Keep the existing borders and call it a day? Pro Palestinian people aren't chanting from the river to the sea for no reason. What if we give all the land to the Palestinians? Well the Israelis will feel like they just lost their land and the conflict will continue. Give all the land to Israel? Palestinians will feel like they just lost their land and will fight to get it back. The only long term solution is get people to accept the principle of forgive and forget. Until people can accept they may not have the land their ancestors had there will continue to be conflicts over land. Maybe some slight adjustments to the existing borders need to be made for cultural, religious, and language reasons for this to work, but until we can move on from past offenses we will continue to kill and displace one another. In regards to the natives, I don't know what the best way to make everybody feel whole. I don't think stripping land from nonnatives whose families have lived their for generations is the right way to solve this. That is the same thing the Europeans did to the natives. It will continue the animosity over the land. Forgive and forget seems like the only real solution. We may need to make some slight adjustments to borders though. I think giving the natives a few years to file any lawsuits and then calling it good is the solution. If you didn't get your lawsuit in or discovered additional land you think belongs to you, then you just have to forgive and forget.