3 ms·

In most capitalist countries, only a small proportion of that that $18 + $4 paid in tax is used for welfare and the $15 is much larger than that. A lot goes to

In most capitalist countries, only a small proportion of that that $18 + $4 paid in tax is used for welfare and the $15 is much larger than that. A lot goes to military, policing, law, prisons, etc. which serve to protect the profits of the ruling class. It also assumes that profits are actually correctly accounting for the value appropriated by the owners of capital, which often hides various other ways in which they extract value from labour.

qwytw 3y ago
> A lot goes to military, policing, law, prisons, etc I never implied it all goes to welfare. Yet other things, like healthcare, education, infrastructure and loads of other things do provide some utility. > of that that $18 + $4 Assuming you agree my example is somewhat accurate it's actually $18 + $4 + $5 = $27 Capital gains etc. will also be paid on the $14 further decreasing it. Now let's look at actual data instead of saying silly things about oppression, social spending: OECD average: 21.1% of GDP France: 31.6% Italy: 30.1% Germany: 26.7% US: 22.7% Total Government spending: France: 59% of GDP Italy: 54.1% Germany: 51% US: 44.9% So if more than half = tiny according to you, then yes you're correct. Of course since this data doesn't support your views who cares...
- dontlaugh 3y ago
  I had originally addressed someone saying most of their hard earned money goes to welfare, which is incorrect. I pointed out much more goes to profits instead. That’s all.
  - nickpp 3y ago
    No. You posited that the majority of the value generated by labour is appropriated by the owners of capital. You were corrected (with numbers) to the actual culprit capturing the majority of value generated by labor&capital: governments.
    - dontlaugh 3y ago
      The discussion was about welfare, it’s childish to complain that I didn’t constantly refer to it. Ultimately the difference doesn’t matter much, governments are capital too in countries where the ruling class is capitalists. What they are forced to spend to reproduce the working class is still for their own profits. Governments aren’t some thing separate from class society.
      - nickpp 3y ago
        Governments confiscate an even bigger slice of the value produced in communist countries. The difference is that there is much less value produced there…
        dontlaugh 3y ago
        In socialist countries, workers form the ruling class. Taxes thus become a form of distributing surplus as the majority see fit. There’s less value produced in countries that started our poorer and such countries tend to have successful proletarian revolutions. It shouldn’t be surprising that they can’t instantly be as developed as the countries that exploited them.
        nickpp 3y ago
        In the communist Eastern Europe where I grew up the nomenklatura formed the ruling class. And the only distribution of surplus was to themselves. The rest of us was starving. Common theme to all the “proletarian revolutions” I know. All that changed dramatically with the switch to capitalist, market driven economy in the 90s leading to the amazing wealth and prosperity we are currently enjoying. Meanwhile I am still waiting to hear about any communist success story…
        dontlaugh 3y ago
        I grew up in the 90s in Eastern Europe, all I saw was constantly worsening material conditions. Nowadays we’re forced to leave our countries to avoid poverty. Almost everyone older tells us how much worse off we are than they were during socialism. But at least the remaining socialist countries are slowly winning. At this point it’s socialism or extinction.

qwytw 3y ago

> A lot goes to military, policing, law, prisons, etc I never implied it all goes to welfare. Yet other things, like healthcare, education, infrastructure and loads of other things do provide some utility. > of that that $18 + $4 Assuming you agree my example is somewhat accurate it's actually $18 + $4 + $5 = $27 Capital gains etc. will also be paid on the $14 further decreasing it. Now let's look at actual data instead of saying silly things about oppression, social spending: OECD average: 21.1% of GDP France: 31.6% Italy: 30.1% Germany: 26.7% US: 22.7% Total Government spending: France: 59% of GDP Italy: 54.1% Germany: 51% US: 44.9% So if more than half = tiny according to you, then yes you're correct. Of course since this data doesn't support your views who cares...

dontlaugh 3y ago
I had originally addressed someone saying most of their hard earned money goes to welfare, which is incorrect. I pointed out much more goes to profits instead. That’s all.
- nickpp 3y ago
  No. You posited that the majority of the value generated by labour is appropriated by the owners of capital. You were corrected (with numbers) to the actual culprit capturing the majority of value generated by labor&capital: governments.
  - dontlaugh 3y ago
    The discussion was about welfare, it’s childish to complain that I didn’t constantly refer to it. Ultimately the difference doesn’t matter much, governments are capital too in countries where the ruling class is capitalists. What they are forced to spend to reproduce the working class is still for their own profits. Governments aren’t some thing separate from class society.
    - nickpp 3y ago
      Governments confiscate an even bigger slice of the value produced in communist countries. The difference is that there is much less value produced there…
      - dontlaugh 3y ago
        In socialist countries, workers form the ruling class. Taxes thus become a form of distributing surplus as the majority see fit. There’s less value produced in countries that started our poorer and such countries tend to have successful proletarian revolutions. It shouldn’t be surprising that they can’t instantly be as developed as the countries that exploited them.
        nickpp 3y ago
        In the communist Eastern Europe where I grew up the nomenklatura formed the ruling class. And the only distribution of surplus was to themselves. The rest of us was starving. Common theme to all the “proletarian revolutions” I know. All that changed dramatically with the switch to capitalist, market driven economy in the 90s leading to the amazing wealth and prosperity we are currently enjoying. Meanwhile I am still waiting to hear about any communist success story…
        dontlaugh 3y ago
        I grew up in the 90s in Eastern Europe, all I saw was constantly worsening material conditions. Nowadays we’re forced to leave our countries to avoid poverty. Almost everyone older tells us how much worse off we are than they were during socialism. But at least the remaining socialist countries are slowly winning. At this point it’s socialism or extinction.