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Stuff like this needs to be a bigger deal then a news article. That is the only way to stop this from happening. The CEOs and supply chain managers need to be b

Stuff like this needs to be a bigger deal then a news article. That is the only way to stop this from happening. The CEOs and supply chain managers need to be brought in front of a panel and thoroughly reviewed as to what happened and why. If it is determined to be the result of any cost cutting strategy they need to be immediately held liable with monetary and potentially jail time if it's severe enough. This is the only way this will stop happening is if people are scared to do it. Right now this happens constantly and in a week everyone will have forgotten, in a month the recall notices will disappear from every grocery store and people will resume buying applesauce pouches.

hanselot 3y ago
[flagged]
J_Shelby_J 3y ago
Potential jail time? I’m with china and how they handle the infant formula debacle.
- acdha 3y ago
  I’d much prefer these guys generate money rather than be an ongoing cost to taxpayers. Allow them on some kind of supervised work-release program with every bit of income over a certain amount above going towards care for their victims.
  - BobbyJo 3y ago
    The point of punishment is deterrence. You maximize value by facilitating a culture that doesn't lie, cheat, steal, and do harm to others. The value a single person can generate is dwarfed by the value an ethical culture will. "Worse case scenario, I have to live like middle America" is a terrible deterrent.
    - tsukikage 3y ago
      Not just deterrence, but also safety. If these folk have already demonstrated they are willing to harm others in order to "generate money", having them do more of that seems... counterproductive. Harm done to others, meanwhile, is not free. Each of the affected toddlers will have had hospital time, and could have had a productive life of "generating money" had they not been killed by a fruit pouch; so even if you throw morality under the bus and focus purely on picking the outcome that "generates money"... society loses much more money with the death of a toddler than it gains with the sale of a fruit pouch. If it turns out that someone deliberately made that choice, that person is a risk to society and must be prevented from acting in ways that might cause further harm in the future.
      - pixl97 3y ago
        Oh, and this is in the case the child dies.... survival may be worse. Lead and the developing brain are two things that should never mix. The mental declines caused by lead will leave a damaged, crippled human being robbed of their abilities.
        Anotheroneagain 3y ago
        [flagged]
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
        pixl97 3y ago
        https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4961898/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4961898/ https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S277241662200050X https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S277241662... https://www.researchgate.net/publication/297731586_Lead_toxicity_A_review https://www.researchgate.net/publication/297731586_Lead_toxi... https://ehjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12940-015-0008-9 https://ehjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12940-... Please, politely take your conspiracy bullshit elsewhere. Lead toxicity, especially in developing brains and in high amounts is well established.
  - malfist 3y ago
    I think this takes the cake for worst opinions I've read on HN. You're really suggesting criminals should go free as long as we cap their maximum income? Really?
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - acdha 3y ago
      > You're really suggesting criminals should go free as long as we cap their maximum income? Not free but under some kind of program where they’re allowed to stay out of prison in some kind of supervised program. These guys were greedy, not axe murderers, and I don’t think there’s much public risk as long as they’re no longer in a position where they can make decisions which affect other people’s health again. I know it can feel satisfying to light the torches and demand vengeance – it’s a primal emotional reaction – but I don’t think it’s going to do anything. I doubt these guys are going to have evidence of intention to deliberately poison anyone, and I doubt that paying to keep them in jail is going to have more positive outcome than being allowed to stay out of jail so they can make restitution payments.
      - NoGravitas 3y ago
        > These guys were greedy, not axe murderers These guys did a lot more damage than any axe murderer ever did. Lining them up against the wall would do a lot to deter other CEOs from cutting corners in this way.
        acdha 3y ago
        Sure, and if evidence turns up that they consciously chose to put lead into food they might even face serious charges but I sudd as kept this will turn out to be more along the lines of not doing enough to figure out why their cinnamon supplier could be so cheap or doing less testing because they hadn’t seen any problems so far. Once you’re at that level you’re going to need a lot of firing squads…
      - malfist 3y ago
  - maxerickson 3y ago
    If they are actually held responsible, they shouldn't end in a position of responsibility, so not that likely to generate high income. Also, why not the mean? Surely they've made lots of decisions in their lives that were not so egalitarian as your proposal.
    - acdha 3y ago
      Yeah, median was a sloppy choice. My thought was just that someone this greedy is also going to be deterred by the prospect of not making more than, say, a barista or janitor but would jump at the prospect of staying gainfully employed instead going to prison.
  - Gigachad 3y ago
    Giving them life in prison serves as a warning to others looking to cut costs. Also the ones most responsible were executed so they aren’t costing the taxpayer anything now.
- CorrectHorseBat 3y ago
  Cover it up until the Olympics are over?
  - NullPrefix 3y ago
    better late than never
- bglusman 3y ago
  I hadn't heart about this but, to summarize, two people received capital punishment over this, one suspended death sentence, 3 life imprisonments, 2 15 year jail terms, and 13 others with lesser jail terms. http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2009-01/23/content_7422983.htm http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2009-01/23/content_742298...
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- throwawaymaths 3y ago
  The infant formula thing is actively adding something to cheat. This looks like an accident.
  - xethos 3y ago
    Where did you get any evidence, or anything to go on at all really, that lead you to assume "accident" instead of "American cost-cutting"? Because I didn't see anything to back up corporate-whoopsie in TFA.
    - frumper 3y ago
      It'd be cheaper to add nothing, or water, than lead.
    - throwawaymaths 3y ago
      Really? It occurred in multiple food packagers, suggesting a supply problem. Do you know how many American suppliers make cinnamon domestically? I believe that number is very close to zero.
  - SAI_Peregrinus 3y ago
    It looks like they got contaminated cinnamon. Lead (II,IV) oxide (red lead) is a reddish-brown pigment which could have been used to adulterate the cinnamon to make it look better (hide imperfections since it's close to the color of high-quality cinnamon bark). Similar to how lead (II) chromate gets added to turmeric to hide imperfections. So I'd not rule out deliberate addition of red lead to allow selling a cheaper product.
    - mediasavvy 3y ago
      More like buying cheap cinnamon, and not checking for lead. Which is kind of the same thing.
    - throwawaymaths 3y ago
      Good point. I wasn't aware that cinnamon was used as an adulterant to improve cinnamon marketability
pjc50 3y ago
It's only seven kids? Wait until you find out which widely sold product routinely kills American kids with lead. > Right now this happens constantly Food product poisoning this bad in the US is pretty rare. Even Flint, Michigan got cleaned up eventually.
- dubcanada 3y ago
  What part of my statement made it seem like I am pro guns? Or really talking about anything related to guns. And it's only 7 kids that they tested. Who knows how many there actually is.
  - 0xParlay 3y ago
    He’s obviously talking about SUVs which have no constitutional protection. We need to get assault-style vehicles off the road. Unfortunately the powerful auto lobbies won’t let us.
    - Ekaros 3y ago
      I'm all from banning passenger vehicles from private consumers and companies.
psychlops 3y ago
Assuming that there is no way to be 100% certain that all food is safe all the time, what do you think is the acceptable amount of poisoning that should be considered safe? 0.001%? Six sigma? There will always be some sort of food contamination going on if people want to buy food. Is this example outside a normal range in the larger picture? Or is it just an outrage article? Corporations are constantly cost-cutting to keep product prices low for consumers, so that can't really be a way to judge liability.
- dubcanada 3y ago
  I am not concerned with 100%s that is impossible, what I am concerned with is negligence within the industry. That's why it would be up to a review, if found guilty then applicable recourse is delt. I can't say what is right/wrong. And maybe nothing could have prevented this, but that doesn't mean it should just be a flyer on grocery stores. There needs to be reasonings and data collected to prevent it from happening again and prevent companies that don't care about you or me from running over us.

hanselot 3y ago

[flagged]

J_Shelby_J 3y ago

Potential jail time? I’m with china and how they handle the infant formula debacle.

acdha 3y ago
I’d much prefer these guys generate money rather than be an ongoing cost to taxpayers. Allow them on some kind of supervised work-release program with every bit of income over a certain amount above going towards care for their victims.
- BobbyJo 3y ago
  The point of punishment is deterrence. You maximize value by facilitating a culture that doesn't lie, cheat, steal, and do harm to others. The value a single person can generate is dwarfed by the value an ethical culture will. "Worse case scenario, I have to live like middle America" is a terrible deterrent.
  - tsukikage 3y ago
    Not just deterrence, but also safety. If these folk have already demonstrated they are willing to harm others in order to "generate money", having them do more of that seems... counterproductive. Harm done to others, meanwhile, is not free. Each of the affected toddlers will have had hospital time, and could have had a productive life of "generating money" had they not been killed by a fruit pouch; so even if you throw morality under the bus and focus purely on picking the outcome that "generates money"... society loses much more money with the death of a toddler than it gains with the sale of a fruit pouch. If it turns out that someone deliberately made that choice, that person is a risk to society and must be prevented from acting in ways that might cause further harm in the future.
    - pixl97 3y ago
      Oh, and this is in the case the child dies.... survival may be worse. Lead and the developing brain are two things that should never mix. The mental declines caused by lead will leave a damaged, crippled human being robbed of their abilities.
      - Anotheroneagain 3y ago
        [flagged]
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
        pixl97 3y ago
        https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4961898/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4961898/ https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S277241662200050X https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S277241662... https://www.researchgate.net/publication/297731586_Lead_toxicity_A_review https://www.researchgate.net/publication/297731586_Lead_toxi... https://ehjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12940-015-0008-9 https://ehjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12940-... Please, politely take your conspiracy bullshit elsewhere. Lead toxicity, especially in developing brains and in high amounts is well established.
- malfist 3y ago
  I think this takes the cake for worst opinions I've read on HN. You're really suggesting criminals should go free as long as we cap their maximum income? Really?
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - acdha 3y ago
    > You're really suggesting criminals should go free as long as we cap their maximum income? Not free but under some kind of program where they’re allowed to stay out of prison in some kind of supervised program. These guys were greedy, not axe murderers, and I don’t think there’s much public risk as long as they’re no longer in a position where they can make decisions which affect other people’s health again. I know it can feel satisfying to light the torches and demand vengeance – it’s a primal emotional reaction – but I don’t think it’s going to do anything. I doubt these guys are going to have evidence of intention to deliberately poison anyone, and I doubt that paying to keep them in jail is going to have more positive outcome than being allowed to stay out of jail so they can make restitution payments.
    - NoGravitas 3y ago
      > These guys were greedy, not axe murderers These guys did a lot more damage than any axe murderer ever did. Lining them up against the wall would do a lot to deter other CEOs from cutting corners in this way.
      - acdha 3y ago
        Sure, and if evidence turns up that they consciously chose to put lead into food they might even face serious charges but I sudd as kept this will turn out to be more along the lines of not doing enough to figure out why their cinnamon supplier could be so cheap or doing less testing because they hadn’t seen any problems so far. Once you’re at that level you’re going to need a lot of firing squads…
    - malfist 3y ago
- maxerickson 3y ago
  If they are actually held responsible, they shouldn't end in a position of responsibility, so not that likely to generate high income. Also, why not the mean? Surely they've made lots of decisions in their lives that were not so egalitarian as your proposal.
  - acdha 3y ago
    Yeah, median was a sloppy choice. My thought was just that someone this greedy is also going to be deterred by the prospect of not making more than, say, a barista or janitor but would jump at the prospect of staying gainfully employed instead going to prison.
- Gigachad 3y ago
  Giving them life in prison serves as a warning to others looking to cut costs. Also the ones most responsible were executed so they aren’t costing the taxpayer anything now.
CorrectHorseBat 3y ago
Cover it up until the Olympics are over?
- NullPrefix 3y ago
  better late than never
bglusman 3y ago
I hadn't heart about this but, to summarize, two people received capital punishment over this, one suspended death sentence, 3 life imprisonments, 2 15 year jail terms, and 13 others with lesser jail terms. http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2009-01/23/content_7422983.htm http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2009-01/23/content_742298...
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
throwawaymaths 3y ago
The infant formula thing is actively adding something to cheat. This looks like an accident.
- xethos 3y ago
  Where did you get any evidence, or anything to go on at all really, that lead you to assume "accident" instead of "American cost-cutting"? Because I didn't see anything to back up corporate-whoopsie in TFA.
  - frumper 3y ago
    It'd be cheaper to add nothing, or water, than lead.
  - throwawaymaths 3y ago
    Really? It occurred in multiple food packagers, suggesting a supply problem. Do you know how many American suppliers make cinnamon domestically? I believe that number is very close to zero.
- SAI_Peregrinus 3y ago
  It looks like they got contaminated cinnamon. Lead (II,IV) oxide (red lead) is a reddish-brown pigment which could have been used to adulterate the cinnamon to make it look better (hide imperfections since it's close to the color of high-quality cinnamon bark). Similar to how lead (II) chromate gets added to turmeric to hide imperfections. So I'd not rule out deliberate addition of red lead to allow selling a cheaper product.
  - mediasavvy 3y ago
    More like buying cheap cinnamon, and not checking for lead. Which is kind of the same thing.
  - throwawaymaths 3y ago
    Good point. I wasn't aware that cinnamon was used as an adulterant to improve cinnamon marketability

pjc50 3y ago

It's only seven kids? Wait until you find out which widely sold product routinely kills American kids with lead. > Right now this happens constantly Food product poisoning this bad in the US is pretty rare. Even Flint, Michigan got cleaned up eventually.

dubcanada 3y ago
What part of my statement made it seem like I am pro guns? Or really talking about anything related to guns. And it's only 7 kids that they tested. Who knows how many there actually is.
- 0xParlay 3y ago
  He’s obviously talking about SUVs which have no constitutional protection. We need to get assault-style vehicles off the road. Unfortunately the powerful auto lobbies won’t let us.
  - Ekaros 3y ago
    I'm all from banning passenger vehicles from private consumers and companies.

psychlops 3y ago

Assuming that there is no way to be 100% certain that all food is safe all the time, what do you think is the acceptable amount of poisoning that should be considered safe? 0.001%? Six sigma? There will always be some sort of food contamination going on if people want to buy food. Is this example outside a normal range in the larger picture? Or is it just an outrage article? Corporations are constantly cost-cutting to keep product prices low for consumers, so that can't really be a way to judge liability.

dubcanada 3y ago
I am not concerned with 100%s that is impossible, what I am concerned with is negligence within the industry. That's why it would be up to a review, if found guilty then applicable recourse is delt. I can't say what is right/wrong. And maybe nothing could have prevented this, but that doesn't mean it should just be a flyer on grocery stores. There needs to be reasonings and data collected to prevent it from happening again and prevent companies that don't care about you or me from running over us.