5 ms·

> majority of such value is appropriated by the owners of capital majority of such value is appropriated by the governments Here. Fixed that for you.

by nickpp 3y ago

dontlaugh 3y ago
In almost any industry and company, profits are vastly higher than any tax paid. If they weren't, the owners of capital wouldn't bother exploiting workers.
- nickpp 3y ago
  Governments are taxing: salaries paid to employees, sales of products and services, profits made by the company, dividends paid and capital gains. Also the great majority of value created by a company is captured by the society in improved productivity, products and services. Only a small part is retained by the capital owners. Finally, these days anybody can easily become an evil capitalist with just a few bucks and a smartphone app, and anybody with a pension plan already is.
  - dontlaugh 3y ago
    And? Per-employee profits are far higher than salaries or taxes, yet the source for both is value produced by the worker's labour. Somehow you're ignoring the majority of what is stolen by capitalists from workers, yet focus on a minor side-effect.
    - nickpp 3y ago
      Oh, the old Labor Theory of Value. It's been debunked over and over again.
    - qwytw 3y ago
      > Per-employee profits are far higher than salaries or taxes, I don't think that assumption at all holds true for the majority of businesses. Even an extremely profitable tech company like Google "only" has a gross margin of around 28%.
      - dontlaugh 3y ago
        That's ignoring other value extracted by the capitalist class, like "salaries" for capitalists that do no work (like CEOs), anything spent on the board of directors, value extracted indirectly via the stock market, etc. It's also for a very narrow portion of the global economy, where workers are paid particularly well.
        qwytw 3y ago
        > for capitalists that do no work (like CEOs) I mean... sure. They still pay taxes on their income. > value extracted indirectly via the stock market, etc. Like how? > It's also for a very narrow portion of the global economy, where workers are paid particularly well. You misunderstood me, I cited Google as an example of a company which is relatively close what you're saying (high margins, a relatively high proportion of value goes direct to share-holders). Most companies which have high numbers of workers are less profitable that it. Anyway this is pointless. Do you have any data?
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- qwytw 3y ago
  That's not really true generally if your margins are low and you include all the taxes paid by the worker e.g. A very oversimplified example (which I think should be somewhat approximately accurate): - Your revenue is $100 + $21 (VAT) - $40 goes to suppliers and other expenses - $40 goes to labour (let's say they pay ~$18 in taxes) - $20 is gross profit (you pay ~$5 in corporate tax on that, 25%) on top of that there is VAT which is another ~4$. So you end up with a profit of $15 and 'pay'(or rather 'generate') $27 in taxes (and you still need to pay personal income tax when you want to cash out). And I think an 20% operating margin is pretty good for most businesses.
  - dontlaugh 3y ago
    In most capitalist countries, only a small proportion of that that $18 + $4 paid in tax is used for welfare and the $15 is much larger than that. A lot goes to military, policing, law, prisons, etc. which serve to protect the profits of the ruling class. It also assumes that profits are actually correctly accounting for the value appropriated by the owners of capital, which often hides various other ways in which they extract value from labour.
    - qwytw 3y ago
      > A lot goes to military, policing, law, prisons, etc I never implied it all goes to welfare. Yet other things, like healthcare, education, infrastructure and loads of other things do provide some utility. > of that that $18 + $4 Assuming you agree my example is somewhat accurate it's actually $18 + $4 + $5 = $27 Capital gains etc. will also be paid on the $14 further decreasing it. Now let's look at actual data instead of saying silly things about oppression, social spending: OECD average: 21.1% of GDP France: 31.6% Italy: 30.1% Germany: 26.7% US: 22.7% Total Government spending: France: 59% of GDP Italy: 54.1% Germany: 51% US: 44.9% So if more than half = tiny according to you, then yes you're correct. Of course since this data doesn't support your views who cares...
      - dontlaugh 3y ago
        I had originally addressed someone saying most of their hard earned money goes to welfare, which is incorrect. I pointed out much more goes to profits instead. That’s all.

> majority of such value is appropriated by the owners of capital majority of such value is appropriated by the governments Here. Fixed that for you.

by nickpp 3y ago

> majority of such value is appropriated by the owners of capital majority of such value is appropriated by the governments Here. Fixed that for you.

dontlaugh 3y ago

In almost any industry and company, profits are vastly higher than any tax paid. If they weren't, the owners of capital wouldn't bother exploiting workers.

nickpp 3y ago
Governments are taxing: salaries paid to employees, sales of products and services, profits made by the company, dividends paid and capital gains. Also the great majority of value created by a company is captured by the society in improved productivity, products and services. Only a small part is retained by the capital owners. Finally, these days anybody can easily become an evil capitalist with just a few bucks and a smartphone app, and anybody with a pension plan already is.
- dontlaugh 3y ago
  And? Per-employee profits are far higher than salaries or taxes, yet the source for both is value produced by the worker's labour. Somehow you're ignoring the majority of what is stolen by capitalists from workers, yet focus on a minor side-effect.
  - nickpp 3y ago
    Oh, the old Labor Theory of Value. It's been debunked over and over again.
  - qwytw 3y ago
    > Per-employee profits are far higher than salaries or taxes, I don't think that assumption at all holds true for the majority of businesses. Even an extremely profitable tech company like Google "only" has a gross margin of around 28%.
    - dontlaugh 3y ago
      That's ignoring other value extracted by the capitalist class, like "salaries" for capitalists that do no work (like CEOs), anything spent on the board of directors, value extracted indirectly via the stock market, etc. It's also for a very narrow portion of the global economy, where workers are paid particularly well.
      - qwytw 3y ago
        > for capitalists that do no work (like CEOs) I mean... sure. They still pay taxes on their income. > value extracted indirectly via the stock market, etc. Like how? > It's also for a very narrow portion of the global economy, where workers are paid particularly well. You misunderstood me, I cited Google as an example of a company which is relatively close what you're saying (high margins, a relatively high proportion of value goes direct to share-holders). Most companies which have high numbers of workers are less profitable that it. Anyway this is pointless. Do you have any data?
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
qwytw 3y ago
That's not really true generally if your margins are low and you include all the taxes paid by the worker e.g. A very oversimplified example (which I think should be somewhat approximately accurate): - Your revenue is $100 + $21 (VAT) - $40 goes to suppliers and other expenses - $40 goes to labour (let's say they pay ~$18 in taxes) - $20 is gross profit (you pay ~$5 in corporate tax on that, 25%) on top of that there is VAT which is another ~4$. So you end up with a profit of $15 and 'pay'(or rather 'generate') $27 in taxes (and you still need to pay personal income tax when you want to cash out). And I think an 20% operating margin is pretty good for most businesses.
- dontlaugh 3y ago
  In most capitalist countries, only a small proportion of that that $18 + $4 paid in tax is used for welfare and the $15 is much larger than that. A lot goes to military, policing, law, prisons, etc. which serve to protect the profits of the ruling class. It also assumes that profits are actually correctly accounting for the value appropriated by the owners of capital, which often hides various other ways in which they extract value from labour.
  - qwytw 3y ago
    > A lot goes to military, policing, law, prisons, etc I never implied it all goes to welfare. Yet other things, like healthcare, education, infrastructure and loads of other things do provide some utility. > of that that $18 + $4 Assuming you agree my example is somewhat accurate it's actually $18 + $4 + $5 = $27 Capital gains etc. will also be paid on the $14 further decreasing it. Now let's look at actual data instead of saying silly things about oppression, social spending: OECD average: 21.1% of GDP France: 31.6% Italy: 30.1% Germany: 26.7% US: 22.7% Total Government spending: France: 59% of GDP Italy: 54.1% Germany: 51% US: 44.9% So if more than half = tiny according to you, then yes you're correct. Of course since this data doesn't support your views who cares...
    - dontlaugh 3y ago
      I had originally addressed someone saying most of their hard earned money goes to welfare, which is incorrect. I pointed out much more goes to profits instead. That’s all.