5 ms·

I live in the South of Europe and I can relate: the working people work and pay taxes just so those who live on welfare can live off us. So obviously we evade a

by vasdae 3y ago

I live in the South of Europe and I can relate: the working people work and pay taxes just so those who live on welfare can live off us. So obviously we evade as much tax as we can.

radicalbyte 3y ago
..and your nominal tax rates are really high but the effective tax rates pretty normal. The super-rich excluded of course.
tgv 3y ago
A country without roads, amazing.
- petre 3y ago
  Not really, only Agio Oros doesn't have roads. Well they do have a few dirt roads. The rest do have roads, they collect enough tax to support the infrastructure, some even manage to build new infrastructure. Usually when the authorities build infrastructure, the politicians also steal part of the taxpayer funds to enrich themselves. That's one reason why tax evasion is a cultural thing. The others are welfare and pension (unrelated to contributivity) freeloaders. So it's mainly as a form of protest.
- nickpp 3y ago
  There must be some incredibly expensive technology in those roads, considering how much governments are taking from us to build them. I mean I can get a supercomputer in my pocket that allows me to access the sum of our civilization knowledge anywhere I am and to communicate with anyone of earth for a few hundred bucks and a monthly fee less than a meal, but roads?! Nooo, those are the real value at the center of our society.
  - piva00 3y ago
    > I mean I can get a supercomputer in my pocket that allows me to access the sum of our civilization knowledge anywhere I am and to communicate with anyone of earth for a few hundred bucks and a monthly fee less than a meal, but roads?! Nooo, those are the real value at the center of our society. Well... Yeah? Roads are really fucking useful, like many more times than all the knowledge you can have in your pocket. Without roads you don't have that thing in your pocket, because it's not even getting to you, at least not in a convenient timeframe (and not for cheap). Roads, sewers, water pipes, electricity cables, without those there would be absolutely no way for your supercomputer to be made, even less for that cheap. Don't dunk on roads, there's a reason why the Romans are still praised for them.
    - nickpp 3y ago
      Of course infrastructure is useful, even if not that amazing. But why are governments charging us for it even more than the Romans did when countless other, much much more amazing things (and just as useful) came down in price dramatically during the last 2000 years? I have a hunch: in my town all road repairs are made by companies owned by friends and relatives of the politicians in power…
dontlaugh 3y ago
Welfare is a small fraction of the value generated by labour. The vast majority of such value is appropriated by the owners of capital, as profits. They did no work yet they keep amounts much larger than your salary.
- nickpp 3y ago
  > majority of such value is appropriated by the owners of capital majority of such value is appropriated by the governments Here. Fixed that for you.
  - dontlaugh 3y ago
    In almost any industry and company, profits are vastly higher than any tax paid. If they weren't, the owners of capital wouldn't bother exploiting workers.
    - nickpp 3y ago
      Governments are taxing: salaries paid to employees, sales of products and services, profits made by the company, dividends paid and capital gains. Also the great majority of value created by a company is captured by the society in improved productivity, products and services. Only a small part is retained by the capital owners. Finally, these days anybody can easily become an evil capitalist with just a few bucks and a smartphone app, and anybody with a pension plan already is.
      - dontlaugh 3y ago
        And? Per-employee profits are far higher than salaries or taxes, yet the source for both is value produced by the worker's labour. Somehow you're ignoring the majority of what is stolen by capitalists from workers, yet focus on a minor side-effect.
        nickpp 3y ago
        Oh, the old Labor Theory of Value. It's been debunked over and over again.
kome 3y ago
> so those who live on welfare can live off us is if there is ANY welfare state in italy...
- rsynnott 3y ago
  Italian public pension spending vs GDP is higher than anywhere else in the OECD.
Nextgrid 3y ago
I'd actually be happy if tax money went on welfare as opposed to funding government incompetence, mismanagement or subsidizing the tax avoidance (if not evasion) of those at the top.

by vasdae 3y ago

I live in the South of Europe and I can relate: the working people work and pay taxes just so those who live on welfare can live off us. So obviously we evade as much tax as we can.

radicalbyte 3y ago

..and your nominal tax rates are really high but the effective tax rates pretty normal. The super-rich excluded of course.

tgv 3y ago

A country without roads, amazing.

petre 3y ago
Not really, only Agio Oros doesn't have roads. Well they do have a few dirt roads. The rest do have roads, they collect enough tax to support the infrastructure, some even manage to build new infrastructure. Usually when the authorities build infrastructure, the politicians also steal part of the taxpayer funds to enrich themselves. That's one reason why tax evasion is a cultural thing. The others are welfare and pension (unrelated to contributivity) freeloaders. So it's mainly as a form of protest.
nickpp 3y ago
There must be some incredibly expensive technology in those roads, considering how much governments are taking from us to build them. I mean I can get a supercomputer in my pocket that allows me to access the sum of our civilization knowledge anywhere I am and to communicate with anyone of earth for a few hundred bucks and a monthly fee less than a meal, but roads?! Nooo, those are the real value at the center of our society.
- piva00 3y ago
  > I mean I can get a supercomputer in my pocket that allows me to access the sum of our civilization knowledge anywhere I am and to communicate with anyone of earth for a few hundred bucks and a monthly fee less than a meal, but roads?! Nooo, those are the real value at the center of our society. Well... Yeah? Roads are really fucking useful, like many more times than all the knowledge you can have in your pocket. Without roads you don't have that thing in your pocket, because it's not even getting to you, at least not in a convenient timeframe (and not for cheap). Roads, sewers, water pipes, electricity cables, without those there would be absolutely no way for your supercomputer to be made, even less for that cheap. Don't dunk on roads, there's a reason why the Romans are still praised for them.
  - nickpp 3y ago
    Of course infrastructure is useful, even if not that amazing. But why are governments charging us for it even more than the Romans did when countless other, much much more amazing things (and just as useful) came down in price dramatically during the last 2000 years? I have a hunch: in my town all road repairs are made by companies owned by friends and relatives of the politicians in power…

dontlaugh 3y ago

Welfare is a small fraction of the value generated by labour. The vast majority of such value is appropriated by the owners of capital, as profits. They did no work yet they keep amounts much larger than your salary.

nickpp 3y ago
> majority of such value is appropriated by the owners of capital majority of such value is appropriated by the governments Here. Fixed that for you.
- dontlaugh 3y ago
  In almost any industry and company, profits are vastly higher than any tax paid. If they weren't, the owners of capital wouldn't bother exploiting workers.
  - nickpp 3y ago
    Governments are taxing: salaries paid to employees, sales of products and services, profits made by the company, dividends paid and capital gains. Also the great majority of value created by a company is captured by the society in improved productivity, products and services. Only a small part is retained by the capital owners. Finally, these days anybody can easily become an evil capitalist with just a few bucks and a smartphone app, and anybody with a pension plan already is.
    - dontlaugh 3y ago
      And? Per-employee profits are far higher than salaries or taxes, yet the source for both is value produced by the worker's labour. Somehow you're ignoring the majority of what is stolen by capitalists from workers, yet focus on a minor side-effect.
      - nickpp 3y ago
        Oh, the old Labor Theory of Value. It's been debunked over and over again.

kome 3y ago

> so those who live on welfare can live off us is if there is ANY welfare state in italy...

rsynnott 3y ago
Italian public pension spending vs GDP is higher than anywhere else in the OECD.

Nextgrid 3y ago

I'd actually be happy if tax money went on welfare as opposed to funding government incompetence, mismanagement or subsidizing the tax avoidance (if not evasion) of those at the top.