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You're right. Some developers who moved away from Java during the heyday of EJB1.0/2.0 and Struts1.0 definitely had valid criticisms back in 2004/2005 (the war

You're right. Some developers who moved away from Java during the heyday of EJB1.0/2.0 and Struts1.0 definitely had valid criticisms back in 2004/2005 (the war between Java ecosystems and Rails). Fast forward to 2010-2012, the criticisms themselves had become outdated.

rbanffy 15y ago
Not all of them. Java and C# tooling is still horribly complicated, both languages are overly verbose and building any significant app with either one still requires tons of boilerplate code (usually generated by said overy complicated tools. Productivity is also much lower (here) when compared to teams using JavaScript or Python.
- edwinnathaniel 15y ago
  Weird. Maybe it's a matter of taste but I find each tools have the same level of "complication". Having said that, I do want to ask you to refrain yourself from commenting non-issue such as the IDE + Static language and LoC due to formatting debate because it is heavily a matter of preference in which I think it would definitely be a waste of my and your time to discuss further. Side note: I don't think Eclipse is any more complex than Vim to master (unless of course your developers use Notepad) and Maven to be... more stable and less of a moving target compare to similar tools in other environments. I don't write much boilerplate code these days because I use Spring-Data and other modern frameworks (JAX-RS, JAX-WS). So I'm still confused with many people keep saying "tons of boilerplate code". Can you quantify these "tons"? 2 extra lines? 10 extra lines? what is the context/situation? Can you explain with some examples so I can see your pain point? Gone are the day of boilerplate XMLs as well since these days frameworks are moving toward annotations heavy. Many situations depend on the context: we built a moderately complicated "portal" that communicates with 4 different data sources (2 Web Services, 2 scheduled DB dumps) using Java in about 6 months. The software has to be deployed in 4 different environments (LOCAL, DEV, UAT, PROD). Bending Maven to meet certain build/packaging requirement was simple. Maintenance has been a breeze so far: no downtime (we use the latest GlassFish), once the DB locked (but that was the DB), and once JPA/Hibernate bailed on us due to the size of the data we pulled (we skimmed the data down a bit and the issue is gone). DB migration was a walk in the park using Flyway. After going through Rails, Python, Java and lately C#, my mindset definitely has changed when it comes to the holy-grail of productivity debate: they all suck with different level of problems.

rbanffy 15y ago

Not all of them. Java and C# tooling is still horribly complicated, both languages are overly verbose and building any significant app with either one still requires tons of boilerplate code (usually generated by said overy complicated tools. Productivity is also much lower (here) when compared to teams using JavaScript or Python.

edwinnathaniel 15y ago
Weird. Maybe it's a matter of taste but I find each tools have the same level of "complication". Having said that, I do want to ask you to refrain yourself from commenting non-issue such as the IDE + Static language and LoC due to formatting debate because it is heavily a matter of preference in which I think it would definitely be a waste of my and your time to discuss further. Side note: I don't think Eclipse is any more complex than Vim to master (unless of course your developers use Notepad) and Maven to be... more stable and less of a moving target compare to similar tools in other environments. I don't write much boilerplate code these days because I use Spring-Data and other modern frameworks (JAX-RS, JAX-WS). So I'm still confused with many people keep saying "tons of boilerplate code". Can you quantify these "tons"? 2 extra lines? 10 extra lines? what is the context/situation? Can you explain with some examples so I can see your pain point? Gone are the day of boilerplate XMLs as well since these days frameworks are moving toward annotations heavy. Many situations depend on the context: we built a moderately complicated "portal" that communicates with 4 different data sources (2 Web Services, 2 scheduled DB dumps) using Java in about 6 months. The software has to be deployed in 4 different environments (LOCAL, DEV, UAT, PROD). Bending Maven to meet certain build/packaging requirement was simple. Maintenance has been a breeze so far: no downtime (we use the latest GlassFish), once the DB locked (but that was the DB), and once JPA/Hibernate bailed on us due to the size of the data we pulled (we skimmed the data down a bit and the issue is gone). DB migration was a walk in the park using Flyway. After going through Rails, Python, Java and lately C#, my mindset definitely has changed when it comes to the holy-grail of productivity debate: they all suck with different level of problems.