7 ms·

guns are not a good example. there is no way i can use a gun for constructive purpose. think of a knife. 99.99% use the knife for good reasons. However, some u

by snambi 15y ago

guns are not a good example. there is no way i can use a gun for constructive purpose. think of a knife. 99.99% use the knife for good reasons. However, some use it to harm others. Does it make sense to outlaw knives? I use wireshark often to see what goes into the request. A lot of developers use it. I think it is mostly used for good intentions.

aes256 15y ago
Do you honestly think 'hacking tools' are used primarily with good intentions (i.e. as part of authorised penetration testing, interception of network traffic, etc.) and that nefarious use is the exception? Obviously it's nigh-on impossible to measure, but I'd suspect it is the other way round...
- UnFleshedOne 15y ago
  Problem is mostly with classification. Is ping a hacking tool? Is cmd.exe a hacking tool? (black window sure looks dangerous...) Is g++ a hacking tool? If not, can I carry around source code of a port scanner and a compiler on the same laptop? Is that the same as transporting disassembled gun? (Any debugger is a killer cracking tool too) I predict a big market for tetris clones with port scanning functionality...
anamax 15y ago
> guns are not a good example. there is no way i can use a gun for constructive purpose. That tells us more about you than it says about guns. It says is that you're either ignorant or a thug. We can easily distinguish the two. How many people have you assaulted? If 0, you don't know that folks who use guns criminally have a history of other criminality. If not... > think of a knife. 99.99% use the knife for good reasons. That's true of guns as well.
- freehunter 15y ago
  Not really. I use and own many knives, and would never use one on a person, even in self-defense. No one wins in a knife fight. I use knives for cutting food in the kitchen, but also for cutting fishing line, rope, slicing through grass and undergrowth to get to the soil, shaving down wood to fit where I need it to fit, etc. Knives are a tool. I use a gun to kill. That's its only purpose. Hunting/killing and target practice for hunting are the only things a gun is useful for. I can't use a gun to help me with the crops, to fish, or while working in the garage. Knives can be used to construct. Guns can only be used to destruct. Not saying guns have no legitimate purpose (I use one for hunting many times per year), but that legitimate purpose begins and ends with killing or practicing to kill. It's a long leap from taking the life of a deer to taking the life of a human, but you use the exact same tool in the exact same way, the only way it can be used.
  - fein 15y ago
    So are we ruling out target practice for the sake of target practice? I go shooting around once a month for the sole purpose of making a steel plate ring. I have no intention of hunting animals or killing a human being with the firearms that I use; The sole purpose is recreational target shooting. Of course, in a wild scenario such as home invasion that would be a different story, however the same can be said of any object used for defense purposes, be it a knife, pipe, flower pot, etc. And lets be honest here, you would most definitely use a knife in self defense if it came down to that. It's a preposterous argument to say that in a life or death scenario, you'd opt for a lesser source of protection in order to not use a sharp object.
    - freehunter 15y ago
      I would not use a knife. There is an extremely high possibility that I would be injured by my own knife just as easily as I would be injured by the knife of my opponent. If someone held a knife to me and demanded my wallet, I would give it to him. If someone held a knife to me and demanded my life, I would attempt to disarm him/her with my hands, not my knife. Blades are dangerous in ways that guns can never be. I covered target practice in "practicing to kill". Whether or not you intend to do so, a gun is used for killing, and practicing with a gun is practicing how to use a tool designed for killing. I understand this may not be your view, but this is reality the way I see it.
    - tripzilch 15y ago
      > And lets be honest here, you would most definitely use a knife in self defense if it came down to that. It's a preposterous argument to say that in a life or death scenario, you'd opt for a lesser source of protection in order to not use a sharp object. Really?! Well, I guess it's different if, thanks to your gun laws there's a good chance the intruder might be carrying a firearm. No scratch that, if they got a gun, then you're still screwed with a knife. First, do you know where to hit them to disable them at once? If not, you're now standing really close to a really angry, bleeding intruder. Second, even if you do, they now bled on the walls, the furniture, everywhere. Have fun cleaning that up. Third, you just killed a person. You can't really "disable" someone with a knife, either you kill them or you don't. My advice? A big stick. Like the wooden handle of a broomstick or something. Keeps people with knives at a distance, you can hit them, poke them, and pin them to the ground while you call the police. (stick locks below the chin, behind the jawbone, base of the neck, pushing backwards. very uncomfortable)
harshreality 15y ago
Self defense is a legitimate constructive use of a gun. Target practice is also legitimate constructive use, unless you also consider martial arts to be not constructive. Hunting, particularly for those who eat what they kill, or hunting varmints, is a legitimate constructive use, ethics of hunting being extra-topical and not relevant in a discussion specifically of firearms. Maybe 99.99, maybe 99% of guns are also used or possessed for those good reasons, or simply collecting. Suppose 100 homicides a day are carried out in the U.S, although last I looked it's somewhat less than that. How many guns are used at firing ranges and for hunting? Perhaps 10,000, perhaps more. That's true about knives. Yet the UK has banned carrying any knives other than non-locking pocketknives in public, even for utility. [1] The problem with no lock, is that the blade has a tendency to snap shut on your fingers. [1] http://www.goxplore.net/guides/Knife_law_%28UK%29#Carrying_Knives_in_Public http://www.goxplore.net/guides/Knife_law_%28UK%29#Carrying_K...
mahyarm 15y ago
I think an even better example are construction tools. Hammers, drills, saws, wrenches, grinders, welders, measuring tape, stud finders, etc. A bunch of these items can be used to break into various secured places and injure or kill someone. But most of the time, they're not, they're used to build or modify things. Most people don't think of a wire testing tool or a saw as a serious weapon and will see the ridiculousness of regulating away ping, wireshark or python.

by snambi 15y ago

aes256 15y ago

Do you honestly think 'hacking tools' are used primarily with good intentions (i.e. as part of authorised penetration testing, interception of network traffic, etc.) and that nefarious use is the exception? Obviously it's nigh-on impossible to measure, but I'd suspect it is the other way round...

UnFleshedOne 15y ago
Problem is mostly with classification. Is ping a hacking tool? Is cmd.exe a hacking tool? (black window sure looks dangerous...) Is g++ a hacking tool? If not, can I carry around source code of a port scanner and a compiler on the same laptop? Is that the same as transporting disassembled gun? (Any debugger is a killer cracking tool too) I predict a big market for tetris clones with port scanning functionality...

anamax 15y ago

> guns are not a good example. there is no way i can use a gun for constructive purpose. That tells us more about you than it says about guns. It says is that you're either ignorant or a thug. We can easily distinguish the two. How many people have you assaulted? If 0, you don't know that folks who use guns criminally have a history of other criminality. If not... > think of a knife. 99.99% use the knife for good reasons. That's true of guns as well.

freehunter 15y ago
Not really. I use and own many knives, and would never use one on a person, even in self-defense. No one wins in a knife fight. I use knives for cutting food in the kitchen, but also for cutting fishing line, rope, slicing through grass and undergrowth to get to the soil, shaving down wood to fit where I need it to fit, etc. Knives are a tool. I use a gun to kill. That's its only purpose. Hunting/killing and target practice for hunting are the only things a gun is useful for. I can't use a gun to help me with the crops, to fish, or while working in the garage. Knives can be used to construct. Guns can only be used to destruct. Not saying guns have no legitimate purpose (I use one for hunting many times per year), but that legitimate purpose begins and ends with killing or practicing to kill. It's a long leap from taking the life of a deer to taking the life of a human, but you use the exact same tool in the exact same way, the only way it can be used.
- fein 15y ago
  So are we ruling out target practice for the sake of target practice? I go shooting around once a month for the sole purpose of making a steel plate ring. I have no intention of hunting animals or killing a human being with the firearms that I use; The sole purpose is recreational target shooting. Of course, in a wild scenario such as home invasion that would be a different story, however the same can be said of any object used for defense purposes, be it a knife, pipe, flower pot, etc. And lets be honest here, you would most definitely use a knife in self defense if it came down to that. It's a preposterous argument to say that in a life or death scenario, you'd opt for a lesser source of protection in order to not use a sharp object.
  - freehunter 15y ago
    I would not use a knife. There is an extremely high possibility that I would be injured by my own knife just as easily as I would be injured by the knife of my opponent. If someone held a knife to me and demanded my wallet, I would give it to him. If someone held a knife to me and demanded my life, I would attempt to disarm him/her with my hands, not my knife. Blades are dangerous in ways that guns can never be. I covered target practice in "practicing to kill". Whether or not you intend to do so, a gun is used for killing, and practicing with a gun is practicing how to use a tool designed for killing. I understand this may not be your view, but this is reality the way I see it.
  - tripzilch 15y ago
    > And lets be honest here, you would most definitely use a knife in self defense if it came down to that. It's a preposterous argument to say that in a life or death scenario, you'd opt for a lesser source of protection in order to not use a sharp object. Really?! Well, I guess it's different if, thanks to your gun laws there's a good chance the intruder might be carrying a firearm. No scratch that, if they got a gun, then you're still screwed with a knife. First, do you know where to hit them to disable them at once? If not, you're now standing really close to a really angry, bleeding intruder. Second, even if you do, they now bled on the walls, the furniture, everywhere. Have fun cleaning that up. Third, you just killed a person. You can't really "disable" someone with a knife, either you kill them or you don't. My advice? A big stick. Like the wooden handle of a broomstick or something. Keeps people with knives at a distance, you can hit them, poke them, and pin them to the ground while you call the police. (stick locks below the chin, behind the jawbone, base of the neck, pushing backwards. very uncomfortable)

harshreality 15y ago

Self defense is a legitimate constructive use of a gun. Target practice is also legitimate constructive use, unless you also consider martial arts to be not constructive. Hunting, particularly for those who eat what they kill, or hunting varmints, is a legitimate constructive use, ethics of hunting being extra-topical and not relevant in a discussion specifically of firearms. Maybe 99.99, maybe 99% of guns are also used or possessed for those good reasons, or simply collecting. Suppose 100 homicides a day are carried out in the U.S, although last I looked it's somewhat less than that. How many guns are used at firing ranges and for hunting? Perhaps 10,000, perhaps more. That's true about knives. Yet the UK has banned carrying any knives other than non-locking pocketknives in public, even for utility. [1] The problem with no lock, is that the blade has a tendency to snap shut on your fingers. [1] http://www.goxplore.net/guides/Knife_law_%28UK%29#Carrying_Knives_in_Public http://www.goxplore.net/guides/Knife_law_%28UK%29#Carrying_K...

mahyarm 15y ago

I think an even better example are construction tools. Hammers, drills, saws, wrenches, grinders, welders, measuring tape, stud finders, etc. A bunch of these items can be used to break into various secured places and injure or kill someone. But most of the time, they're not, they're used to build or modify things. Most people don't think of a wire testing tool or a saw as a serious weapon and will see the ridiculousness of regulating away ping, wireshark or python.